The voyage of Lehi and Company

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_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Morrissey wrote:No, it's at best a lucky hit. Not too dissimilar from the case where I might be thinking about someone at the very second she calls.


That's a ridiculous comparison to make.

Morrissey wrote:Kind of like the numerous other geographical references in the Book of Mormon for which there has been no independent and unbiased verification. What's Joseph's hit rate? Not too good, it turns out.


And the lack of evidence for one toponym has absolutely whatsoever to do with the validity of another. You seem unaware of the phenomenon known as the accident of preservation.

Morrissey wrote:Joseph Smith did, however, have a habit of borrowing words and inserting them in full form or in altered from into his narratives.


Or so you conclude based on words filling a spectrum of comparability to biblical words that you have a priori decided cannot come from actual historiography.

Morrissey wrote:Borrowing and altering the word Nahum, with which he would have been familiar, and achieving one lucky hit (in the midst of dozens if not into the hundreds of misses), is a far more parsimonious and plausible explanation than the Book of Mormon is an actual ancient record of a lost civilization, and all the implausible baggage that drags in its train.


First, you're creating a conjunction fallacy by adding details to the general conclusion that naturally make it less probable than a single very general conclusion (A is more probable than B in conjunction with B1 in conjunction with B2, etc.). To turn the tables I could say that it's more parsimonious that the Book of Mormon is true (very general) than that Joseph Smith borrowed a name that happens to parallel a toponym from Arabia that also matches the time period of the Book of Mormon, as well as the location of Lehi's party and the utility of the locale. On top of that, the two candidates for Bountiful lie almost exactly where the Book of Mormon puts it in geographical relation to Nahom. You also have to add the "implausible baggage" about eleven witnesses all lying together and maintaining that lie even after becoming hostile to the church, and the numerous Hebrew literary techniques in the book that were completely anomalous to the 19th century, and the etc., etc. If I add more on top of the hypothesis and compare it to a very general one, it's going to sound less probable no matter what the situation.

Hopefully you see how you're lack of familiarity with statistics, the law of parsimony, and logical fallacies has simply misled your amateur assessment of this issue. Don't let that get in the way of your impotent posturing, though.

Second, if one appeals to your methodologies here then we'd be forced to conclude the same even if we discovered Nephi's original manuscripts buried in the area. After all, borrowing on the part of Joseph Smith still makes more sense than the Book of Mormon being true (as long as we sling all the baggage on top). You seem to think that's how this kind of history works.

Morrissey wrote:I'm wondering, how many non-FARMS scholars, non-LDS scholars in the appropriate fields find your toponym evidence as compelling as you appear to do?


Another rather naïve pseudo-standard invented by cynical non-scholars. It also happens to be an appeal to authority.

Morrissey wrote:Surely, if this evidence is so persuasive as you make it out to be, you and your colleagues have used this wonderful evidence to win over your skeptical colleagues?


We're not out there to hawk our wares to other scholars in the field. Apologetics is meant to answer critics and to provide information for Latter-day Saints.

Morrissey wrote:I thought not.


If only smarminess could make up for historiographical naïveté.
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_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Not only that, but I'm pretty sure the inscription reads NHM and one has to supply the vowels, which need not be "a" and "o"


And since (1) they didn't write vowels at all, (2) their spoken vowels don't correspond perfectly to English vowels, (3) we have no way of knowing what vowels they used, (4) their vocalizations weren't diachronically consistent, and (5) 19th century transliteration standards were multifarious, the vowels are irrelevant. We have as close a match as is possible to have. To frame it more clearly, there is no word that could possibly appear on that altar that could be a closer match to the Book of Mormon's "Nahom" than the word that appears.
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_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

maklelan wrote:
Hopefully you see how you're lack of familiarity with statistics, the law of parsimony, and logical fallacies has simply misled your amateur assessment of this issue. Don't let that get in the way of your impotent posturing, though.


Well, I know statistics, and I say the NHM inscription is much ado about nothing. Holy Joe was just as much of a fraud as Miss Cleo, and was correct less often. (Not to mention he lacked the fake Jamaican accent that gave her faux credibility.)

...even if we discovered Nephi's original manuscripts buried in the area.


That won't happen because the Kinderhook plates were wrapped in them.

We're not out there to hawk our wares to other scholars in the field. Apologetics is meant to answer critics and to provide information for Latter-day Saints.


Yes, you market it to dupes.
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_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

maklelan wrote:To frame it more clearly, there is no word that could possibly appear on that altar that could be a closer match to the Book of Mormon's "Nahom" than the word that appears.


Yes, and it's not good enough.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

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_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Well, I know statistics


And you're not making the same silly arguments about parsimony. You are, however, just nakedly asserting stuff.

Calculus Crusader wrote:Holy Joe was just as much of a fraud as Miss Cleo, and was correct less often. (Not to mention he lacked the fake Jamaican accent that gave her faux credibility.)


Cute, but irrelevant to the discussion.

Calculus Crusader wrote:That won't happen because the Kinderhook plates were wrapped in them.


Zing!

Calculus Crusader wrote:Yes, you market it to dupes.


Are you calling me a dupe?
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_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Yes, and it's not good enough.


All you can say is "Nu-uh"? If you can't discuss the evidence intelligently then feel free to stay out of it.
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_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

maklelan wrote:
Are you calling me a dupe?


If you believe in the transparent fraud that is Mormonism then, yes, absolutely.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

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_Calculus Crusader
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

maklelan wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:Yes, and it's not good enough.


All you can say is "Nu-uh"? If you can't discuss the evidence intelligently then feel free to stay out of it.


I already mentioned the problem with your alleged match. NHM need not be "Nahom."
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Calculus Crusader wrote:I already mentioned the problem with your alleged match. NHM need not be "Nahom."


I didn't say it "need be," but the parallels certainly make the connection plausible. It merits consideration, which you refuse to give. Simply barking "Nu-uh!" because you think Mormons are stupid, however, doesn't overcome the evidence, it just tells me that you don't care about the facts. Your opinion weighs far more heavily than any facts. I think that kind of argumentation is best left in the high schools where it comes from.
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_maklelan
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Re: The voyage of Lehi and Company

Post by _maklelan »

Calculus Crusader wrote:If you believe in the transparent fraud that is Mormonism then, yes, absolutely.


Would you mind supporting this "transparent fraud" assertion? You haven't said anything particularly insightful or even logically sound yet, so I find it difficult to accept that I'm a dupe despite being far more informed about this argument (and Mormonism in general), as well as far more objective about the evidence.
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