For Gaz: CK, location or state of being?

[_bcspace]

Would you mind elaborating a little, BC? I don't have access to the book.

Just a summary of some of his points?

Check out the Plot summary here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce

[_Tiktaalik]

I believe Christ did all that he did for those who were appointed to this world. I do not believe his sacrifice affected other worlds.

I beg to differ. Jesus atoned for the sins of those who have lived on millions of worlds. He created millions of worlds under the direction of his Father and led a group of spirits to form the plan of salvation in a grand council. All of this happened long ago.

Paul O

Yes, but how many of those worlds and spirits will fit on the head of a pin?

[_Gazelam]

Paul,

Jesus atoned for the sins of those who have lived on millions of worlds.

That does not make sense to me.

He created millions of worlds under the direction of his Father and led a group of spirits to form the plan of salvation in a grand council.

The plan of salvation was the Fathers plan. Christ offered himself up for the role of redeemer. It is only Christs plan insomuch as he received authority to act in the name of the Father.

The plan of salvation is all about love. It doens't have to be done exactly the same way in every world. The plan of salvation is nothing more than a presentation of God's love to his children. This may be done in a variety of ways. Gods may do according to their own will. The Gods are not told what to do by other Gods. Gods have their own will and desire and are free to choose according to their own desire.

The First principles and ordinances of the gospel do not change. The way they are presented can change, but the plan itself is unchanging. Is the New and Everlasting covenant (Abrahamic Covenant) not performed on other worlds? Is the name of deity not taken upon oneself as a title of family? Is the law of Chastity not enforced? the Law of sacrifice? The lessons are the same in all places, just the teacher and presentation change.

[_Paul Osborne]

That does not make sense to me.

What doesn't make sense to you, the fact that Christ created millions of other worlds or that he could atone for the sins of those who live on worlds that he created?

The plan of salvation was the Fathers plan. Christ offered himself up for the role of redeemer. It is only Christs plan insomuch as he received authority to act in the name of the Father.

Is this based on your recollection of your participation of the grand council? I think you underestimate the intelligence of the premortal Jesus Christ.

The First principles and ordinances of the gospel do not change. The way they are presented can change, but the plan itself is unchanging. Is the New and Everlasting covenant (Abrahamic Covenant) not performed on other worlds? Is the name of deity not taken upon oneself as a title of family? Is the law of Chastity not enforced? the Law of sacrifice? The lessons are the same in all places, just the teacher and presentation change

How do you know the first principles and ordinances of the gospel do not change? How many worlds have you been on? The curtains of God are stretched out so far that no mortal man can conceive the quantity of God’s workings among his children. You cannot say that God commands water baptisms on all the worlds he creates. He can do all kinds of things and have his love and gospel expressed in different ways. His religious ordinances on other worlds may be totally different then anything you have ever imagined.

The first principle of the gospel at this time is faith. But that will change. Faith is but a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The first principle of the gospel is knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ and not by baptism but through emersion within his love. Faith and baptism are of this world but knowledge and true love are of the world to come.

You can't tell me what is done on other worlds because you have no knowledge of these things.

Paul O

[_Gazelam]

Paul,

What doesn't make sense to you, the fact that Christ created millions of other worlds or that he could atone for the sins of those who live on worlds that he created?

It is my understanding that all work is done within a sphere. Christs Atonement would be a work done for the group of spirits assigned to this world. It is only universal in the sense that it covers all sins for those who repent.

Is this based on your recollection of your participation of the grand council? I think you underestimate the intelligence of the premortal Jesus Christ.

No, I base it on scripture and the teachings of prophets. Christ was like unto God in the pre-mortal world, I don't discount that in any way. That does not change the fact that the Plan of Salvation was the Fathers, and it was presented to Christ and the others in the Grand Council.


Joseph Smith stated:
"God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits." (Teachings p.354)

Moses 4:2
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

How do you know the first principles and ordinances of the gospel do not change? How many worlds have you been on?

don't forget this important teaching:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is Teaming new truths.

This is false-utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply-not in the sense that he learn new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is "Eternal," using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is th,e reward we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in th,e family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, anid possessing the fulness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.

Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow-why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my- comprehension.

Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number?

The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.

Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith "that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation." These he named as-

1 .The idea that he actually exists;

2.A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes; and

3.An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.

The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgment, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as "the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature," which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgment, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment and personification and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.

Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words: Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would-be impossible for them to exercise faith in him. [As quoted by Bruce R. McConkie in Mormon Doctrine (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1%6), p. 264]

If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation.

and lastly...

You can't tell me what is done on other worlds because you have no knowledge of these things.

I have it on good authority that the importance of the sybolism and the nature of the priesthood itself is unchanging. But just for fun, how do you think the plan of salvation could be taught better and more effective than it is now?

[_Paul Osborne]

It is my understanding that all work is done within a sphere. Christs Atonement would be a work done for the group of spirits assigned to this world. It is only universal in the sense that it covers all sins for those

I think you should know that Jesus has other sheep not of this fold, not of this earth. Many worlds have come and gone under his direction. He made those worlds and he is the Savior of them.

Look, elder McConkie was clueless about what was done on all other worlds. He had no knowledge of these things and neither did he have a stewardship to teach the saints with authority about what is done and what is not done on other worlds. Elder McConkie had his own limitations to deal with in trying to understand the gospel according as it has been delivered to us on this earth. He had strong opinions and he expressed them. But he was not in authority to tell us that God couldn't administer his gospel in different ways in other worlds. In some ways I think McConkie had a short vision and often acted like an evangelical preacher from a protestant church. He wasn’t very open minded in some respects and hurt a lot of people’s feelings with some of the things he said about how we worship God and accept Jesus as our personal Savior.

I’m not about to speculate how the gospel is administered on other worlds. It’s rather pointless, but I will say that God is not boring and he has many ways to express himself. There is no justification in waving the Bible and saying this is how they have to do it on other worlds.

Paul O

[_Gazelam]

Paul,

I think we agree to strongly disagree. In my opinion your completely wrong. I'll leave it at that.

Gaz

[_Gazelam]

Jersey,

Did you want to add anything?

Gaz

[_marg]

Paul,

What doesn't make sense to you, the fact that Christ created millions of other worlds or that he could atone for the sins of those who live on worlds that he created?

It is my understanding that all work is done within a sphere. Christs Atonement would be a work done for the group of spirits assigned to this world. It is only universal in the sense that it covers all sins for those who repent.

You guys are either making up crap, or are regurgitating others who have made up crap.

[_Paul Osborne]

Marg,

I don't believe earth is the only planet in the universe with people on it. In fact, I was watching a UFO documentary the other day which quoted scientific calculation that there are so many star systems in the universed that it would be impossible that life couldn't exist elsewhere.

Where there is life, there is a God.

Paul O