Marg....What Faith IS!

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_marg

Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _marg »

ttribe wrote:While I was specifically referring to the Book of Mormon in my quote, the same explanation applies:

"To put this in other terms - many social scientists believe humans utilize some form of Bayesian analysis for judgment and decision making. In that process, the individual assigns various weights to evidence in favor of, or in opposition to, any given issue and makes a decision based on the result of that process. Some people assign greater weight to the relative dearth of archaeological evidence in favor of the claims of the Book of Mormon. I happen to assign a lesser weight to that evidence due to the impact of an answer to personal prayer. It's really that simple." (http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 53#p314253)


Sure I agree with the above concept that people in their analysis for judgment and decision making assign various weights to evidence. And to some extent I used this process myself in determining whether I thought you were being honest or not. I didn't have a preconceived notion before I read the thread. I knew nothing about you, and little about the Book of Abraham.

I looked at the theory for the Book of Abraham you presented. I evaluated how you presented that theory, how you answered questions throughout the exchange. I noted that it took Scratch a relatively long time to get you to answer at times. You seemed to want to ignore or avoid answering. I assumed based on the way Scratch was asking you questions that he thought you weren't a nut case, that you were fairly intelligent and he's had more experience reading your posts than I have. I compared how I thought a typical believer might rationalize what the evidence suggests to what you suggested and I thought even for a Mormon your theory was way out there. Given these factors which I weighted as being important in critically evaluating your Book of Abraham theory, I came to the conclusion that your theory went beyond being faith based. If there were no Egyptologist translations of the papyri you would accept Smith's word that what he translated was ancient text of biblical Abraham. It's only because of the experts that you are in a position of seeking to rationalize a theory which supports Smith's claim. I'm confident you appreciate exactly what the evidence does lead to absent having to invoke of magic. I'm confident that lack of intelligence is not the factor why you reject a reasonable conclusion of where the evidence leads to. For you to honestly look at the evidence objectively you would have to question your acceptance of Smith and his prophetic abilities. So rather than do that you think all you have to do is invoke the "faith" card in which you are allowed to offer any irrational reasoning, no matter how irrational, no matter how far from what the evidence indicates. With all these factors Tim I reasoned you weren't being honest.

Now I realize most decision making situations in which weighting is used do not involve magic, the supernatural or the extraordinary. Evidence exists or lack of evidence which one would expect is critically evaluated using a subjective weighting. That happens a lot in evaluations of the evidence for how the Book of Mormon was written and I can see to some extent that would happen with archeological evidence or the lack of it when one expects it to exist given various claims.

Explain your weighting of the evidence for the Book of Abraham..what evidence did you weight greater than other evidence such that you concluded the only logical explanation and the only objectively honest theory involved invoking magic.
_ttribe

Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _ttribe »

marg wrote:Explain your weighting of the evidence for the Book of Abraham..what evidence did you weight greater than other evidence such that you concluded the only logical explanation and the only objectively honest theory involved invoking magic.

I never (not once) said that the "only logical explanation and the only objectively honest theory" is the one I've settled on. In fact, my opinion is quite the opposite. I absolutely understand how many people reach the conclusion that the Book of Abraham is fraudulent. It's very rational, in fact. I stated that my weights on the evaluation of evidence on faith-based matters is influenced by my individual, personal, spiritual experiences (which is what I've already stated). Nevertheless, they are mine alone. I expect no one else to accept them. Again, I was asked to disclose my personal belief on the matter and that's exactly what I did.

Your characterization of my answers to Scratch are, in my opinion, absent the context. I, admittedly, do not trust Scratch. It is my opinion that he is a master of the art of twisting people's words. Hence, to the extent you feel like my answers were not as expansive as you would have liked, perhaps you'll go back and read (if only to be intellectually honest, after all) and see that I answered EXACTLY what he asked, and nothing more. It was his line of questioning and it was up to him to take it in whatever direction he wished to go.

One more thought, if I was being "dishonest" (i.e. lying), why would I choose THAT story to give as my "lie?" It is my sense that Trevor may have been correct in his assessment of your accusations re: my statements (viewtopic.php?p=315277#p315277).
_marg

Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _marg »

ttribe wrote:
marg wrote:Explain your weighting of the evidence for the Book of Abraham..what evidence did you weight greater than other evidence such that you concluded the only logical explanation and the only objectively honest theory involved invoking magic.


I never (not once) said that the "only logical explanation and the only objectively honest theory" is the one I've settled on. In fact, my opinion is quite the opposite. I absolutely understand how many people reach the conclusion that the Book of Abraham is fraudulent. It's very rational, in fact. I stated that my weights on the evaluation of evidence on faith-based matters is influenced by my individual, personal, spiritual experiences (which is what I've already stated). Nevertheless, they are mine alone. I expect no one else to accept them. Again, I was asked to disclose my personal belief on the matter and that's exactly what I did.


You weren't asked to disclose what apologetic response you can come up with no matter how irrational, you were asked to give what you truly believe with regards to Smith and the Book of Abraham in order to evaluate whether or not you were intellectually honest. And there are facts for you to evaluate, it isn't solely a matter of throwing out an opinion in which no facts are available. So you were expected to give an objectively honest rational explanation, a most probable best fit explanation not a biased closed minded faith based one which requires no evidence evaluated whatsoever.

And in my assessment of you I think you are fully aware there is a good rational explanation which doesn't require any irrational magic to be invoked. I do not think you truly believe that theory you threw out for the Book of Abraham. If you truly intended to be intellectually honest you should have said that you can't be intellectually honest in answering that question regarding the Book of Abraham because it would go against your faith.

Your characterization of my answers to Scratch are, in my opinion, absent the context. I, admittedly, do not trust Scratch. It is my opinion that he is a master of the art of twisting people's words. Hence, to the extent you feel like my answers were not as expansive as you would have liked, perhaps you'll go back and read (if only to be intellectually honest, after all) and see that I answered EXACTLY what he asked, and nothing more. It was his line of questioning and it was up to him to take it in whatever direction he wished to go.


Again I assessed how you answered, without going back my memory of that conversation was that it took quite a lot of persistence from Scratch to get you to answer regarding the Book of Abraham. I suppose to be fair I should go back, review and give examples. But it's not really that important.

One more thought, if I was being "dishonest" (i.e. lying), why would I choose THAT story to give as my "lie?" It is my sense that Trevor may have been correct in his assessment of your accusations re: my statements (viewtopic.php?p=315277#p315277).


You didn't want to admit that you couldn't be intellectually honest in answering Scratch truthfully with regards to the Book of Abraham so you presented an apologetic irrational implausible scenario and presented it as if that is what you believe. Well Tim I do not believe you. I do not believe you truly believe that scenario. And when you say, it's a faith based belief I think you are using the term "faith" as a cop out.
_Nightlion
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Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _Nightlion »

Well, if this does not go by unnoticed I will be surprised. But, anyway. Marg stated this about the God of the Bible in another thread:
"It's not easy defending the God of the Bible, that he came to earth as a man by impregnating a human and had her give birth to himself so that he could give himself a blood sacrifice by having himself killed in order to to appease himself and thereby forgive all mankind for the disobedience of the first man he created whose crime was to eat from the tree of knowledge."

It's a dumb thing to say it this way as if it were a matter of fact that sums up the God of the Bible. Let me put it another way.

The problem God is solving by having us live this life is MANAGEMENT. How do you manage innumerable souls and give yourself a measure of peace and tranquility with the utmost joy against the overwhelming attraction all these souls have for God? Every management solution is based upon rules or laws. These laws are a means to justify judgments and controls and enforcements that are required to skillfully manage anything, which of itself, would produce chaos.

What is the end product God is striving for? To make up his jewels of those FEW whom he can fully draw unto himself and relate to and advance to the degree needed so that these can comprehend God and together they can have a fullness of joy.

Sorry, God knows he is not saving everybody. Not even close. The natural man is the enemy of God and has been from the beginning, meaning even before this world was.

If every soul had an equal claim upon God then he would have to accept them all equally. This man easily assumes in ignorance. LDS folk doctrines that have only been lightly considered have mangled all that is real and true about us and our relationship with God from the beginning.

The fact is that no soul advanced through seed procreation in this world or in the spirit world is a child of the Living God. That is why the gospel of Jesus Christ is a means by which God does make us his children, by the power of the atonement, and by the conception having the name of Jesus Christ being put upon us, through a regeneration by the power of the Holy Ghost. Thus we are conceived his seed. And therefore, as his seed, heirs with him, and allowed to draw close unto God.

Setting this gospel in faith empowers God to work in the hearts of those whom he has chosen. Meaning that only those whom he recognizes as the meek, lowly of heart, contrite, peacemakers, and such as Christ described in his Sermon on the Mount, will be given the faith to be drawn unto God and work the works of righteousness.

It is all Supreme Management. If you do not like it you will have to lump it. God retains all power to manage by the same laws that will exalt a few to then subject and hold all the residue and overburden where ever it pleases him to do so. (More can be said of this later)

It is all good management. It is all by way of laws. You can choose to enforce them against one and forgive them against another. In means you get to do what ever YOU want. That is the optimal goal of perfect management.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_marg

Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _marg »

Nightlion wrote:Well, if this does not go by unnoticed I will be surprised. But, anyway. Marg stated this about the God of the Bible in another thread:
"It's not easy defending the God of the Bible, that he came to earth as a man by impregnating a human and had her give birth to himself so that he could give himself a blood sacrifice by having himself killed in order to to appease himself and thereby forgive all mankind for the disobedience of the first man he created whose crime was to eat from the tree of knowledge."

It's a dumb thing to say it this way as if it were a matter of fact that sums up the God of the Bible. Let me put it another way.


First of all the context is I was responding to Thews comment which was critical of defending Mormonism and my focus was the magic part. Thews wrote: "In conclusion, it’s not easy defending magic rocks/pagan doctrine and Joe Smith marrying other men’s wives and little girls." Well the Bible contains as much magic if not more which requires defense. Thews in particular to believes much of the magic in the Bible literally happened and is in no position to be critical of others who believe magic in Mormonism.

The problem God is solving by having us live this life is MANAGEMENT. How do you manage innumerable souls and give yourself a measure of peace and tranquility with the utmost joy against the overwhelming attraction all these souls have for God? Every management solution is based upon rules or laws. These laws are a means to justify judgments and controls and enforcements that are required to skillfully manage anything, which of itself, would produce chaos.


NIghtlion your asssertions are meaningless to me. Until you establish that souls exist and a Biblical God exists the rest makes no sense to me. They are simply sentences in which Nightlion has made some assumptions and with those assumptions has continued to make more assertions for which there is no evidence and I fail to see any good reasoning.

What is the end product God is striving for? To make up his jewels of those FEW whom he can fully draw unto himself and relate to and advance to the degree needed so that these can comprehend God and together they can have a fullness of joy.


More Nightlion assertions which are meaningless without being established.

There is no point quoting the rest for the same reason.

Nightlion any argument you make which builds upon those assumptions of God and souls are faulty without first establishing those assumptions. It is rational to reject assumptions or claims of others if they aren't established in some way rationally.
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Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _Nightlion »

marg wrote:
Nightlion any argument you make which builds upon those assumptions of God and souls are faulty without first establishing those assumptions. It is rational to reject assumptions or claims of others if they aren't established in some way rationally.


I was not attempting to save you or any disbelievers. Relax. I only want to demonstrate a rationale for what the God of the Bible did that is both purposeful and sophisticated.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_marg

Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _marg »

Nightlion, and everything you said made no sense to me for the reasons I gave.
_JAK
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Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _JAK »

Nightlion,

In reflection on some of your comments in This Post, your use of assumption and simplistic assertion is in defiance of intellectual analysis of the evolution of not only the human species but is in defiance of the complexity of evolution over hundreds of millions of years well documented by science.

Mindless complacency leads to faith which demonstrates victimization of particular pendants. Let’s look at that thesis in view of some of your words.

Nightlight stated:
The problem God is solving by having us live this life is MANAGEMENT.


You have not established your assertion “God” anywhere. Every statement of yours is hung on assertions and assumptions. Classical World Religions List places the number of these religions at around 4,200. It is likely that no religion is more fractured than Christianity.

A list of Christian denominations shows the list to be 38,000 in the link which I provided. Each of these various groups has its own set of assertions and assumptions. You appear to have no grasp of the degree to which Christianity has evolved over time.

You leap to conclusion after conclusion which are merely yours as you interpret Christianity (or as you have been indoctrinated to believe assertions made by others).

Nightlight stated:
The problem God is solving by having us live this life is MANAGEMENT. How do you manage innumerable souls and give yourself a measure of peace and tranquility with the utmost joy against the overwhelming attraction all these souls have for God?


Who is “you” in the second sentence? Failure to establish any assertion “God” makes all that follows failure. You have not established that any such entity is managing “innumerable souls.” When, in the evolution of the human species do you place the emergence of a concept “soul”?

Nightlight stated:
The problem God is solving by having us live this life is MANAGEMENT. How do you manage innumerable souls and give yourself a measure of peace and tranquility with the utmost joy against the overwhelming attraction all these souls have for God? Every management solution is based upon rules or laws. These laws are a means to justify judgments and controls and enforcements that are required to skillfully manage anything, which of itself, would produce chaos.


Science agrees that there are “rules or laws” but these have no connection to religious assertions by any one of the 38,000 groups (denominations) which each have their own dogmas. You have not the slightest idea what is implied in the last sentence. Just what is “skillfully manage”? Have you any idea that we know via confirmed scientific observation that there are billions and billions of suns much like our own sun? Are you aware of what we know by consensus science about the extent of the universe? You clearly give no evidence that you are connected to available information humans have collected. They have collected that information over time, with great research, and with honest integrity in the exploration of evidence available via microscope and telescope.

Nightlight stated:
What is the end product God is striving for? To make up his jewels of those FEW whom he can fully draw unto himself and relate to and advance to the degree needed so that these can comprehend God and together they can have a fullness of joy.


You have not established your assertion/claim “God.” Hence, the remainder of the comment is entirely irrelevant speculation in the narrow perspective of your religious niche (one of those 38,000) documented in the link/reference provided.

Nightlight stated:
Sorry, God knows he is not saving everybody. Not even close. The natural man is the enemy of God and has been from the beginning, meaning even before this world was.


Assertion piled upon assertion. You know nothing here. “Man” as in a part of the human species has existed a relatively short time in the evolution of this particular 4.5 billion year old planet. Your assertions, implied and stated, are based on ancient copies of copies of copies of interpretations of interpretations of interpretations.

What consensus science considers is the Age of the Universe is 13 to 14 billion years. The age of this planet earth, “this world,” is far shorter. So a rational question for a religious pundit such as you is this: What was your God doing for 9 billion years prior to the emergence of the planet earth?

You see, Nightlion, you simply have no idea what you’re talking about here. You’re making religious claims which were not originated by you. Keep in mind that virtually every religious dogma/doctrine asserts directly or tacitly that its doctrine/dogma is the truth.

Can you see how absurd it is for any one of these claimants to imagine that it, exclusively has an accurate grip on some truth? A single course in Comparative Religions in a state university, a non-partisan university accredited would be of considerable benefit to you.

Nightlight stated:
If every soul had an equal claim upon God then he would have to accept them all equally. This man easily assumes in ignorance. LDS folk doctrines that have only been lightly considered have mangled all that is real and true about us and our relationship with God from the beginning.


It would be possible to construct a God myth that all are accepted “equally.” Some religious perspectives do just that.

Nightlight stated:
This man easily assumes in ignorance.


You assume in ignorance as the above documentation demonstrates. And you do assume, or probably merely accept absent intellectual inquiry the assumptions of others.

Nightlight stated:
The fact is that no soul advanced through seed procreation in this world or in the spirit world is a child of the Living God. That is why the gospel of Jesus Christ is a means by which God does make us his children, by the power of the atonement, and by the conception having the name of Jesus Christ being put upon us, through a regeneration by the power of the Holy Ghost. Thus we are conceived his seed. And therefore, as his seed, heirs with him, and allowed to draw close unto God.


This is entirely assertion/assumption/claim absent any evidential support. Ancient scripts or ancient scripts retooled are entirely useless to establish your assertions/assumptions/claims in this statement.

Nightlight stated:
This man easily assumes in ignorance.


The remainder of your post is more of the same, and it would be redundant to probe your assertions with rational interrogative.

Intellectual complacency leads to faith and punditry. It is rooted in ignorance fueled by superstition and persuasion of charismatic characters.

JAK
_Nightlion
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Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _Nightlion »

So sorry JAK. If I can scrape up enough of my exploded brain off the floor maybe I can give this another go.

JAK wrote: When, in the evolution of the human species do you place the emergence of a concept “soul”?


The emergence of the first component of the soul was in fact when intelligence was organized into independent spheres of existence. God did this. That is how he became the Eternal Father. I am not speaking to your mind but to your faith. Faith comes by hearing the word of the Lord. You need to reconnect your faith before you will comprehend.

All my assumptions are evident in the text of the Bible which is the subject under consideration. Quite naturally I can only address this from my own perspective. This "Mormon" board is sufficiently familiar with my peculiar assumptions.

Unbelievers always seem to want to play ball in a court where they hogtie their opponent. You disallow everything by claiming some high and mighty learned mushy mush that must be adhered to as some sort of justification for your hogtie. PHOOEY. Shove your witchcraft.

Take a minute and make a rational case for your disbelief. Prove to me that you in fact do disbelieve. You might admit that it is not possible for you to prove that you disbelieve.

So where do you come off insisting that I must be able to prove what I believe? Your higher criticisms are just so much forcing a win by belittling grammar or some such nonsense.

I showed a good line of rationale that accounts broadly for the acts and relations of the God of the Bible with man. That is all I intended, to make a case that the story is not absurd.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_Nightlion
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Re: Marg....What Faith IS!

Post by _Nightlion »

marg wrote:Nightlion, and everything you said made no sense to me for the reasons I gave.

Okay.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
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