New Testimonies On Ex-MST

[_TAK]

I seem to remember that twain was a cankerous man especially when it came to religion. I don't think that he was the nicest of men....

LMAO!! Do you really need to attack Mark Twain to make Mormonism work for you ??!

As Danna points out correctly - Palmer does a nice job dismissing these "witnesses"?

[Guest]

The problem is that most Mormons or exmormons believe that you must be active or an exer to defend or be critical of the LDS church. And this is not true at all. They are many inactives that can defend the church. And people are inactive for many reasons.

I don't think it is a matter of inactivity or not, I think it is a matter of actions vs beliefs. You say you believe one thing, but your actions differ from your opinions. Ex-members or ex-believers who "testify", are making a statement of conviction. They are at least backing up their beliefs or non-beliefs with their actions. Inactive believers on the other hand are saying one thing, but their actions (or inactions) in regards to their religious participation are hypocritical.

If you believe or know something, but you do not adhere to what you profess, then do you really KNOW? if you knew, you would act in accordance with what you believed was real and truthful.

Maybe you need to be more tolerant of inactives or people who may defend the LDS church but just can not live it. It happens more than you may think.

I am as tolerant as they come. I am just asking why your alleged beliefs (I say alleged, because you are not living your beliefs) should be taken credibly given that you do not live them? How could you know something and not live accordingly? That is the irony here and your posting negative comments about ex-believers. They at least ARE living according to their beliefs, while you are not.

[_Tchild]

Thank You!!! I've never wanted to post here before, but I couldn't pass up this beautiful simple testimony that is probably closer to describing alot of members in their daily struggles than any chapel/internet dichotomy could.

Testimony of what???

That Mormonism is true, but so unworthy of living its principals? What is being defended here? You cannot gain exaltation in your inactivity, so what exactly do you believe is "true"? If you believed your eternal soul and happiness were in jeopardy you would act accordingly if you really believed, which I do not believe you or Why me really do.

Why is it that you and I respect the law of gravity? Because we know if we violate that law, we will die. Is your physical life so much more important than your eternal soul that you will respect the law of gravity that you KNOW is true, but will disregard your soul with what you profess is "true" in Mormonism, but will not live?

Can you not see how disingenious and hypocritical such stated beliefs vs inactions are?

[_cafe crema]

From what I have read Why Me, you are marginally active? How does anything you opine about Mormon belief have any credibility if you yourself do not find such "truths" compelling enough to be actively engaged in living?

Are you the worst kind of hypocrite?

You remind me of my drug addicted missionary friend that knew that the church was "true". Not in any real practical way, (because he was out banging chicks and doing drugs) but as some sort of distant abstraction that was fun to talk about, but not engage one's life in accordance with such "truths".

We know gravity is real, so none of us walk off high cliffs. If you know the LDS church is true, you live its precepts. If you do not live its precepts, but claim it "true", you are a liar and a hypocrite. Which are you Why me?

The problem is that most Mormons or exmormons believe that you must be active or an exer to defend or be critical of the LDS church. And this is not true at all. They are many inactives that can defend the church. And people are inactive for many reasons.

The worst kind of hypocrite would be one who pretends to be active but isn't. However, one who is upfront with his or her status is far from being a hypocrite.

I remember confessing on the postmormon site that I was inactive for years. My gosh, did they hammer me when I would defend the good in the LDS church. I heard it all from them. They could just not understand an inactive person because as members they had very little respect for inactives, at least this is what it felt like for me.

Maybe you need to be more tolerant of inactives or people who may defend the LDS church but just can not live it. It happens more than you may think.

Nope the worst kind of hypocrite would be the one who pretends to believe what that particular church teaches, ingratiating himself with those who truly believe in the teaching, while professing beliefs that are contrary to theirs at every opportunity. You are one of these hypocrites. Getting up and reading at a catholic service like you are one of them all the while not believing in an iota of what that church teaches and in fact denying what it teaches.

You are In a catholic church posing as a fellow believer all the while being an LDS, that is hypocrisy.

[_why me]

If I were one of the witnesses I probably wouldn't have left the church in the first place. If I did it probably would've been for a short time. But your entire life? Not to mention they contradict each other and themselves. Just like Joe couldn't get the first vision right each time he told it. "Well, I think it was just God, and maybe Christ too. Or was it Christ and a bunch of angels? I'll polish it up later on. Anyways, Heber God wants me to marry your wife. Sleep on it. Well actually Heber, God told me to marry your 14 year old daughter so you guys can get to heaven."

He does not sound like a prophet to mean. He sounds like a power crazy horn dog.

And Joe, this is the problem. Those who were constant TBMs who got shocked and awed never could understand when they were active people who would go inactive or leave the church. But people leave for many reasons. I can not judge them for leaving the LDS church. But I can understand their problem. They just couldn't do it, regardless of what they saw and felt. They exercised their free agency perfectly. Just like me.

But what is impressive is that they could not overcome what they saw and felt with the plates. They never forgot the experience and on their deathbeds, they confirmed what they saw for all to hear. Why? because many knew that they failed in this life to walk the walk. David, Oliver and others who left the fold knew it. And oliver came back and reconfirmed his testimony and gave it again on his deathbed. Why? Because he knew that he was going to meet god and he wanted to make it well. I understand these guys because I am one of them. I can also never forget what happened to me when I prayed about the Book of Mormon. But I can't walk the walk. And if I received the vision that they received, I know that on my deathbed, I would do exactly what they did: reconfirm what I saw to help others understand the truth.

[_why me]

Testimony of what???

That Mormonism is true, but so unworthy of living its principals? What is being defended here? You cannot gain exaltation in your inactivity, so what exactly do you believe is "true"? If you believed your eternal soul and happiness were in jeopardy you would act accordingly if you really believed, which I do not believe you or Why me really do.

Can you not see how disingenious and hypocritical such stated beliefs vs inactions are?

You are almost understanding the problem with the witnesses. Those that left the church knew what they saw and experienced but they could not walk the walk. They confirmed their free agency. But on their deathbeds, knowing that they were going to face god, sought to make it well by reconfirming their testimony of what they saw and experienced. Not because they felt that all will be well in the next life. But rather to help those who are struggling, overcome their struggle through their ( the witnesses) reconfirmation of their testimony.

Was their deathbed testimony hypocritical? No, it was just being a human being...knowing that the end was coming and an attempt to make it okay.

[_why me]

I don't think it is a matter of inactivity or not, I think it is a matter of actions vs beliefs. You say you believe one thing, but your actions differ from your opinions. Ex-members or ex-believers who "testify", are making a statement of conviction. They are at least backing up their beliefs or non-beliefs with their actions. Inactive believers on the other hand are saying one thing, but their actions (or inactions) in regards to their religious participation are hypocritical.

If you believe or know something, but you do not adhere to what you profess, then do you really KNOW? if you knew, you would act in accordance with what you believed was real and truthful.

And this is where you are intolerant because it is either this or that. There is no middle ground. I would believe that you could never understand inactivity as a member and where rather intolerant toward them.

Take the witnesses who left the church. They knew what they experienced and felt and yet, could not walk the walk. I can understand them well because I know that it can be difficult to walk the walk. But like me, they could not deny what they saw and felt. For me, I can not deny want I experienced when I prayed about the Book of Mormon. But like them, I can not walk the walk. It is never this or that...it is just a matter of human experience.

[_why me]

Care to wager why so many people come to find themselves in this position?

The apologists will say that it is the fault of the ex-Mo.

The critic will say that it is the Church's fault.

In any case, I take the exit stories to be indicative of real problems in the LDS Church that ought to be addressed with seriousness by those who care about Mormonism and its adherents. But I'm crazy that way.

I would say that it is the fault of being human. Nothing more. Sure I can fault with the LDS church. I think that they have made mistakes since the middle 1980's in addressing controversy. They were much better in the 1070's and 1980's. The ensign was full of articles about controversies...for example, with the first vision, etc. In fact, when one puts in a controversy in the FAIR search, one can get an ensign article about it from the 70's or 80's.

Why did it change? I have no idea...but it was a conscious decision by LDS policy makers.

[_thews]

But what is impressive is that they could not overcome what they saw and felt with the plates. They never forgot the experience and on their deathbeds, they confirmed what they saw for all to hear.

How easily you brush over the fact they were all excommunicated and remained outside of the church for many years. Whitmer claimed God said the following:

If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.’ In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions.

Why? because many knew that they failed in this life to walk the walk. David, Oliver and others who left the fold knew it. And oliver came back and reconfirmed his testimony and gave it again on his deathbed. Why? Because he knew that he was going to meet god and he wanted to make it well.

How the F do you know why? Maybe there was a money deal involved where his family would be provided for if he claimed the Book of Mormon was trooooo. You don't know Jack what their motives were Why me, and as far as anyone claiming hypocrisy, you would be the last as a devout Catholic. Your manlove for Joe Smith and his accomplishments is where your admiration for him comes from, and not a belief in the doctrine of Joe Smith.

I understand these guys because I am one of them. I can also never forget what happened to me when I prayed about the Book of Mormon. But I can't walk the walk. And if I received the vision that they received, I know that on my deathbed, I would do exactly what they did: reconfirm what I saw to help others understand the truth.

Of all the twisted things you've ever said, this has got to take the cake as the most twisted. You'd better say 10 hail Mary's and go talk to a priest Why me.

[_why me]

How easily you brush over the fact they were all excommunicated and remained outside of the church for many years. Whitmer claimed God said the following:

If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.’ In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness. I had been striving with them for a long time to show them the errors into which they were drifting, and for my labors I received only persecutions.

How the F do you know why? Maybe there was a money deal involved where his family would be provided for if he claimed the Book of Mormon was trooooo. You don't know Jack what their motives were Why me, and as far as anyone claiming hypocrisy, you would be the last as a devout Catholic. Your manlove for Joe Smith and his accomplishments is where your admiration for him comes from, and not a belief in the doctrine of Joe Smith.

Isn't it interesting thews that members on this forum have had a Whitmer experience. I think that zee was the last one who claimed to have prayed and god told him that polygamy was an abomination. Such is the human experience. Many are no different than whitmer. But here is where the difference begins: On his deathbed, he told the world to forget such statements and to listen carefully: I know what I saw is true. I know that I what I experienced is true. And off he went to meet his maker.