LDS Anthropologist Daymon Smith......

[_Jason Bourne]

Interesting how personal opinions and interpretations magically get converted to "doctrines" in the second cast. A whole thought process is invalidated thereby. What a waste of time.

What are you talking about?

[_Analytics]

in my opinion, the LDS church is sort of stuck in the Abrahamic paradigm equating holiness to wealth. I've mentioned this before but the LDS church not only is near obsessed with appearances, power, and authority but they seem to worship those with money. (Ever notice how wealthy and prominent members are treated by the higher ups)?....

Hi TD,

Excellent point. I wonder if Joseph Smith's impoverished background contributed to him seeing things in this Abrahamic way.

If I can add something, the temple ceremonies are definitely oriented in this holiness = wealth, materialistic mind set. That makes it really hard-coded into the religion, and it will be tough for the Church to evolve to a higher order. In the temple, holiness is associated with taking all of your power as an individual—money, time, talents, energy, obedience, and loyalty, and giving it to the church. In exchange for giving all of your power in this life to the Church, in the next life you are promised riches, kingdoms, and even Godhood!

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason,

Nice topic!





My personal opinion is that the spiritual path involves relinquishing selfishness and moving to a mindset where we expand our concern for our self to others... even strangers (think Good Samaritan).

in my opinion, the LDS church is sort of stuck in the Abrahamic paradigm equating holiness to wealth. I've mentioned this before but the LDS church not only is near obsessed with appearances, power, and authority but they seem to worship those with money. (Ever notice how wealthy and prominent members are treated by the higher ups)?

in my opinion, it seems exactly opposite of the teachings of Jesus, more, the natural sense of spiritual development that releases the ego rather than feeding it.

There you go... LOL!

~td~

Well that is part of what Daymon Smith comments on. The amassing of wealth does seem a bit contrary to what Jesus and the early Christians did in the New Testament. It even seems a bit out of sorts for the early LDS Church that seemed very concerned for the poor and hungry.

[_Darth J]

Also I had not idea that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was a trademark and not a legal entity.

It was once a legal entity but the federal government passed legislation to unincorporate the Church back in the late 1800s as part of its efforts to stop polygamy.

Here is the Supreme Court case that upheld the law unincorporating the Church.

That's not accurate. The Church was in fact organized as a corporation when Congress dissolved it under the Edmunds-Tucker Act. Notice the title of the U.S. Supreme Court case to which you linked:

Late Corporation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. United States.

The word "late" is there because the corporation had already been dissolved, and the Church was seeking to gave the act dissolving the corporation invalidated.

[_Darth J]

I found it interesting as well as a bit concerting that the person in control, or essentially the only owner of this Corporation Sole is whoever the president of the church is. He owns the corporation sole and it owns the assets. So the president owns the assets.

This means that Thomas Monson is a billionaire. Someone should notify Forbes and the other publishers of annual billionaire lists that the president of the Mormon church should be included. You could provide them with a copy of the by-laws to prove that he does, in fact, own all the Church's assets. I can guarantee you that something will change when the president of church regularly starts appearing on billionaire lists.

It doesn't mean that at all. The president of the Church is the "trustee-in-trust" for the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It is proposed that we sustain President Spencer W. Kimball as prophet, seer, and revelator, and President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All in favor, please make it manifest. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

Nathan Eldon Tanner as First Counselor in the First Presidency and Marion G. Romney as Second Counselor in the First Presidency. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

It is proposed that we sustain as President of the Council of the Twelve, Elder Ezra Taft Benson. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

As the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles: Ezra Taft Benson, Mark E. Petersen, LeGrand Richards, Howard W. Hunter, Gordon B. Hinckley, Thomas S. Monson, Boyd K. Packer, Marvin J. Ashton, Bruce R. McConkie, L. Tom Perry, David B. Haight, and James E. Faust. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

The counselors in the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

Spencer W. Kimball as trustee-in-trust for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

Sustaining of church officers, 1979, http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

In law, a trustee is a person who holds and/or manages property (including money) on behalf of another. The trustee has a fiduciary duty, which means that he must act in the best interests of the one who entrusts property with the trustee.

It is analogous to, for example, a parent whose son or daughter is a child star and is making lots of money on TV or whatever. While the child is a minor, the parent might set up a trust to manage the child's income on the child's behalf, with the parent as trustee. But the money does not belong to the trustee/parent: it belongs to the child, but is managed by the trustee.

It's similar with the Church. President Monson, or whoever is the current trustee-in-trust, is in charge of managing the Church's assets, but those assets don't belong to him. President Monson has a fiduciary duty to manage those assets in the Corporation's best interests.

[_Darth J]

Darth

Well the corporation sole was a new term for me and I am actually a bit familiar with these things. ...
Written into the corporate by laws though is this. At the presidents death the president of the 12 takes control of the corporation sole and its ownership transfers to him. So succession to the LDS presidency by the senior apostle seems to be for more reasons than that is just the way the Lord wants it.

I have been in several EQ or GD lessons where the instructor or someone in the class will speculate about the next president. They seem to always indicate that the next president is "usually" the senior apostle but it is not required and the Lord can call anyone.
For the church to call someone other than the most senior apostle it would have to change the corporate by laws. How difficult is that and would that have to be a matter of public record?
I love revelation!

Not "would be" a matter of public record. Is a matter of public record. The trustee-in-trust for the Corporation (i.e., the current president of the Church) has to name a successor trustee. Successor trustee means next in line. This is filed with the Utah Department of Commerce, and is a public record.

In the late 1980's, when Ezra Taft Benson was not doing too well physically, the Church filed two powers of attorney with the Utah Department of Commerce, in which President Benson separately authorized Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson to act as his attorney-in-fact (agent) in acting as the trustee-in-trust for the Corporation.

All of this is public record, because it involves creating and amending a government-recognized corporate entity. If you're in downtown Salt Lake City, you can get copies of this stuff at the Heber Wells Building (which houses state government offices), or you can pay to get it online on the Utah Department of Commerce website.

[_cinepro]

in my opinion this is a must listen too podcast. I also think I must purchase this book. There is much of interest for all who debate and discuss things Mormon here. Financial issues are discussed and analyzed. The cost of correlation and what I will term the dumbing down of Church curriculum was fascinating.

I bought the book a few weeks ago after it was discussed at MADB. I'm not too far into it, but I can tell you it's one of the oddest books you'll ever read. You'll either love it or hate it.

I'd be willing to lend it to you when I'm done.

[_bcspace]

What are you talking about?

Essentially that these early teachings were somehow doctrine. In addition to that, I find it quite boneheaded that antiMormons get off with the notion that their feeling that the Church somehow lied to them is valid. It is not. Doctrine and history are two different things. It is not the purpose of doctrine to communicate history.

[_Darth J]

What are you talking about?

Essentially that these early teachings were somehow doctrine. In addition to that, I find it quite boneheaded that antiMormons get off with the notion that their feeling that the Church somehow lied to them is valid. It is not. Doctrine and history are two different things. It is not the purpose of doctrine to communicate history.

BSspace, the issue some of these "anti-Mormons" have is the Church engaging in yellow journalism.

Frank Luther Mott (1941) defines yellow journalism in terms of five characteristics:[1]

1. scare headlines in huge print, often of minor news
2. lavish use of pictures, or imaginary drawings
3. use of faked interviews, misleading headlines, pseudo-science, and a parade of false learning from so-called experts
4. emphasis on full-color Sunday supplements, usually with comic strips (which is now normal in the U.S.)
5. dramatic sympathy with the "underdog" against the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

yellow journalism
n. Journalism that exploits, distorts, or exaggerates the news to create sensations and attract readers.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ ... journalism

[_Willy Law]

Spencer W. Kimball as trustee-in-trust for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All in favor, please manifest it. Contrary, if there be any, by the same sign.

.

Thanks Darth, great stuff.
In regards to the statement "as trustee-in-trust for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".
Is that a legally accurate statement? Or disingenuous?
In other words; technically should it not read:
"as trustee-in-trust for Corporation of the President"? Or since the church name is a trademark they can be used interchangeably?