Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

[_harmony]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

So.... where is it?

[_jon]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

So.... where is it?

The Church publishes all sorts of nonsense and embarrassments, so I'm thinking that the financials must be incredibly damaging, hence the obsessive need to withold it from scrutiny.

[_The Nehor]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

The Church is very interested in honesty but I see no scriptural or doctrinal basis for the idea that "open communication" is somehow a virtue or requirement of the Church.

So.... where is it?

In the vault with the seerstones.

[_harmony]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

The Church is very interested in honesty but I see no scriptural or doctrinal basis for the idea that "open communication" is somehow a virtue or requirement of the Church.

Open communication is a virtue... if you don't know that, I can't help you.

[_Jersey Girl]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

The Church is very interested in honesty but I see no scriptural or doctrinal basis for the idea that "open communication" is somehow a virtue or requirement of the Church.

Let me help you with that, in context:

2 Corinthians 8

1Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

3For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;

4Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

5And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.

6Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.

7Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

10And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

16But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.

17For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you.

18And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

19And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:

21Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

22And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.

23Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

24Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

[_Kishkumen]

Every time problems like these are pointed out to the most egregious offenders they respond with the ludicrous assertion that these aren't mistakes but indications of a literary style that we aesthetic pedestrians are too literal-minded to grasp.

Best post I've read in ages. Sad because it is so true, but fantastic because it sums up the frustrations of dealing with the most active apologists on this board so well.

[_moksha]

Is there any proof that current Church leaders do not believe what they teach?

Are you saying they're just ignorant of church history?

I have no idea as to how much Church history they know. What I was trying to say is that there is no basis to apply the label of dishonesty unless there is direct proof that they do not believe what they are saying is true. The mind has a marvelous filtering process that allows two different people witnessing the same event to report two different accounts of that event. What they have taken in and processed as history may be different than another group of people. Perhaps what they perceive may not be accurate, but if it has been filtered into their version of reality then it is not dishonest.


by the way, grammatical and spelling errors are not punishable offenses. No syntax shall be levied.

[_The Nehor]

Open communication is a virtue...

Not in all situations.

if you don't know that, I can't help you.

You can't help me in any case.

[_The Nehor]

2 Corinthians 8

1Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

3For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;

4Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

5And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.

6Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.

7Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

8I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.

9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

10And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.

16But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.

17For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you.

18And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;

19And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

20Avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us:

21Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

22And we have sent with them our brother, whom we have oftentimes proved diligent in many things, but now much more diligent, upon the great confidence which I have in you.

23Whether any do enquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be enquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.

24Wherefore shew ye to them, and before the churches, the proof of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.

So we should be honest? I already said that is a virtue. That has nothing to do with 'open communication'.

[_Obiwan]

An organization that was interested in honesty and open communication would publish an honest open financial report.

So.... where is it?

The Church has an independent auditing agency check it's books, and the results of said checks are reported on in Conference. You wanting more than that is frankly none of your business.

What are done with the funds of the Church are well open and documented. The Church thus has no interest in giving anti-mormons like you even MORE fodder that you can mock and ridicule.

by the way..... Your alls "conspiracy theorys" on apologists somehow always "justifying" themselves for some of us not having infallible grammer is nothing more than the fantasies of your own minds. Sure, there might be a "particular" thing certain individuals like to do, such as when I defended my usage of "quotes", but you have nothing else to give you cause of such a claim about us. Sorry, but I moved around a lot when I was young, and so I didn't "master" all the "grammer rules". Everyone has different talents and interests, so get over yourselves. And obviously, a second language speaker would tend to be more "exposed" to said rules when they have to learn the new language. So again, get over yourselves. EVERYONE has bad grammer, and EVERYONE has their own reasons for it, some making excuses and most not. There is no "difference" between us in this. That is your elitism and bigotry speaking, not reality.