Of course I hate the LDS church. Is that a problem?

[_malaise]

Malaise,

The LDS Church is a voluntary organization. All churches are voluntary organizations. Other voluntary organizations include: school, work, and the military.

Define voluntary

You claim that the social pressures of the LDS culture make it not a voluntary organization, but I ask you: Who is in charge of you? Who makes decisions for you? You need to start taking responsibility for your own choices and actions in life. If you join an organization and later decide that you don't like it, that's your issue.

If If someone points a gun at you and tells you to do something then you have the option to get shot instead of listening to them. What do you think coercion is? It's threatening someone with an unacceptable or terrible option to make them do something they don't want to do.

. It is not the organization's fault. Millions of people are happy in their devotion to the church, and you and other anti-Mormons do not hold special insights that faithful members are too stupid or duped to grasp.

And why is hatred bad? Because it deeply hinders one's ability to understand.

This has nothing to do with brainwashing



i understand the LDS church quite well

[_Simon Belmont]

Why should people care about how sacred your church is to you? I certainly don't.

It's called compassion. If you cannot feel it, then you fit the description of a sociopath.

Likewise... why don't you go tell the Jew, the Hindu, and the Muslim that you don't care how sacred their religion is to them, either.

[_malaise]

It's called compassion. If you cannot feel it, then you fit the description of a sociopath.

I do feel compassion. That's why I want to save you from the pernicious lies cooked up by Joseph Smith and the church leaders who have followed him.

Likewise... why don't you go tell the Jew, the Hindu, and the Muslim that you don't care how sacred their religion is to them, either.

I do tell them that when they bring it up.

[_Simon Belmont]

Define voluntary

Look it up. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

If someone points a gun at you and tells you to do something then you have the option to get shot instead of listening to them. What do you think coercion is? It's threatening someone with an unacceptable or terrible option to make them do something they don't want to do.

Someone held a gun to your head and forced you to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Well, in that case, you were forced.

I hope you took legal action, because I don't think brandishing a firearm is lawful in most states.

This has nothing to do with brainwashing

Exactly.

i understand the LDS church quite well

I am afraid this is a blatant lie.

[_Joseph]

My goodness what comparison is there to make between the church and Hitler other than to be sensationalistic?
**************************************

How about l-dsinc encouraged German members to support Adolf Hitler and his government and excommunicated a member for actively fighting against it?

l-dsinc leadership from Utah was so damned lame they did not even warn the members, much less the world at large of the evil this man and his nation were bringing upon them.

A failure in leadership, big time.

[_malaise]

Look it up. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

I understand the traditional definition of the term. I want you to explain what YOU mean Simon. If it's really so simple then you shouldn't have a problem explaining what you mean.

Someone held a gun to your head and forced you to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Well, in that case, you were forced.

Really? You had an option that you could have used to avoid doing what the person with the gun wanted, didn't you? My point is that you can coercive even if you leave the person you are coercing some options. The idea that the church is completely voluntary because it does not use physical force is stupid.

I am afraid this is a blatant lie.

Sure it is Simian. That's my new name for you. Get it, like a monkey?

[_Simon Belmont]

you shouldn't have a problem explaining what you mean.

It means you decide whether to participate or not.

Your choices are yours, no one else's.

You need to take responsibility for your own life and stop finding people and organizations to blame for your perceived unhappiness.

You are the captain of your life, and if you made a choice in the past that turned out not to work out for you, it is your fault. Live, learn, and move past it.

No one lied to you. No one coerced you. No one hurt you. Get over it, and start loving instead of hating.

Really? You had an option that you could have used to avoid doing what the person with the gun wanted, didn't you? My point is that you can coercive even if you leave the person you are coercing some options. The idea that the church is completely voluntary because it does not use physical force is stupid.

You used the logical fallacy called false analogy. Choosing to join a church is not the same as someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to join a church. Get over yourself.

Remember, malaise, you are the captain of your life. You make choices, and you must live through the consequences. It's all on you. You have no one else to blame.

[_malaise]

It means you decide whether to participate or not.

You also have a choice when someone points a gun to you head Simian

Your choices are yours, no one else's.

You need to take responsibility for your own life and stop finding people and organizations to blame for your perceived unhappiness.

I am quite happy now. I was unhappy when I was still a member in the church. I was engaged to a man I hated because I was expected to get married, and I hated myself for going along with LDS nonsense. After I let the church there was a bumpy transition period, but it ended with me in a much better place. Can you understand that Simian?

You are the captain of your life, and if you made a choice in the past that turned out not to work out for you, it is your fault. Live, learn, and move past it.

No one lied to you. No one coerced you. No one hurt you. Get over it, and start loving instead of hating.



You used the logical fallacy called false analogy. Choosing to join a church is not the same as someone holding a gun to your head and forcing you to join a church. Get over yourself.

Come on Simian, this response is stupid. I used an example to demonstrate a general point. Even if you can prove that there are differences between the two cases, you can't prove that both situations are fundamentally distinct. In each case you have a choice. Sometimes the Captain of a ship can be forced to make bad decisions through the use of coercion.

Remember, malaise, you are the captain of your life. You make choices, and you must live through the consequences. It's all on you. You have no one else to blame.

Remember Simian, Thomas Monson is the captain of your life.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Simon,

What do you believe will happen to you if you disregard or disobey the teachings of the LDS Church?

[_Simon Belmont]

You also have a choice when someone points a gun to you head Simian

Yes you do, but that comment is irrelevant. No one held a gun to your head to coerce you to join a church.

[/quote]I am quite happy now. I was unhappy when I was still a member in the church.[/quote]

It is good that you're happy now. You made a choice in the past, and you discovered that it was not the right choice for you at that time, and you left.

I was engaged to a man I hated because I was expected to get married, and I hated myself for going along with LDS nonsense.

So are you now blaming the church for a failed engagement? Where does the responsibility lie for our choices and actions, malaise?

After I let the church there was a bumpy transition period, but it ended with me in a much better place. Can you understand that Simian?

Yes. If that is your path then I am glad you are on it. It does not give you the right to hate the church, or to attack it. If you don't want to participate in it, that is your choice, but hatred and malice is never healthy. So leave the church, and leave it alone.

Come on Simian, this response is stupid. I used an example to demonstrate a general point. Even if you can prove that there are differences between the two cases, you can't prove that both situations are fundamentally distinct. In each case you have a choice. Sometimes the Captain of a ship can be forced to make bad decisions through the use of coercion.

You have yet to demonstrate that you were "coerced" into joining a completely voluntary organization. I am willing to grant that, perhaps, your situation might be such an extreme outlier that someone did, in fact threaten you with death if you did not join the church. It is very unlikely, but I suppose it's possible.

Remember Simian, Thomas Monson is the captain of your life.

I make choices, and I live with the consequences. That's called being an adult. You should try it.