Evidence

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_Milesius
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Re: Evidence

Post by _Milesius »

Buffalo wrote:
An argument is not evidence. Arguments should be based on evidence. Unfortunately, yours are devoid of any.


No, it's just that you are devoid of understanding.

And unless you're prepared to show that god is a mathematical concept, bringing mathematical proofs into the discussion is a total red herring.


God is not a mathematical object but both He and they are necessary.

Come back to me when you find <redacted>.


You must have me confused with a Mormon (or a pagan) who believes God has "body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's."
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_maklelan
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Re: Evidence

Post by _maklelan »

Milesius wrote:As a undergraduate, I took classes in Attic Greek, the Hebrew Scriptures, and Ancient Greek religion from an expert in Hellenistic Judaism. (Incidentally, I discussed your Maccabees paper with him months ago while we were both on Facebook and he didn't think much of your claim either.) I also took a New Testament class from someone else in the religious studies department. This is in addition to the books and articles I've read on my own.


So you have no degrees that focus on this area, you've just taken a few courses? I guess as far as credentials and formal training goes, I've got you beat by quite a bit. Who was the expert in Hellenistic Judaism? What were his specific concerns with my paper?

Milesius wrote:Yes, it is. It is disputed by conservative Jewish and Christian* scholars.


And their disputes are not methodologically sound and don't really have any currency outside the devotional circles for which they're produced. They are thus not disputed within scholarship, but just within devotional groups that participate in scholarship. The clearest sign of this is the fact that while commentaries these days often point out that the evidence indicates Deutero-Isaiah was written in the sixth century BCE (this theory goes back to Ibn Ezra, in fact), none of them take the time to actually engage what little has been offered up to the contrary. The issue is settled enough that there's no need to continue making the argument. See, for instance, Blenkinsopp's Isaiah volumes in the Anchor Bible series. Even the Word Biblical Commentary has this to say about the issue:

Some conservative scholars have opposed the division, maintaining the unity of the entire book, the authorship of Isaiah in the 8th century B.C., and these chapters as predictive prophecy [he then cites three books from the 50s]. But the arguments for a 6th century date have proved decisive for most interpreters.


That's the end of the engagement with the objection from conservative scholars. The question cannot be said to be disputed on any actual grounds within scholarship as a whole.

Milesius wrote:We don't see that with the Pseudo-Paul of the Pastoral Epistles, who was from a related community and wrote in the same language as Paul.


There's no indication the author/s of the Pseudo-Paulines were trying to mimic Paul's style.

Milesius wrote:Incredibly, it is also the kind of thing you would expect if the same person wrote the whole book.


So obviously it cannot be marshaled as evidence of either. This is what I pointed out. All the evidence that is methodologically sound points to different authors.

Milesius wrote:LOL. Did they just quote the Chapters 1-39, or the whole book?


The whole book. The conflation of the two compositions had been executed well before the communities responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls arose.

Milesius wrote:Where?


Pages 36-37:

Although I deny the existence of a Deutero- (or a Trito-) Isaiah, I admit that there are significant differences between chapters 1-39 and chapters 40-66. Thus if one were to refer to "First and Second Isaiah" in the same sense as "First and Second Timothy" or "First and Second Peter," this would not be objectionable. Chapters 40-66 are a "new letter," perhaps written many years after chapters 1-39, but the same prophet was responsible for both sections!


Milesius wrote:Even if that is the case, I think it is pretty weak evidence against single authorship.


It's just one of the clues that something is amiss. Obviously nothing hinges on it. The evidence for single authorship is even weaker, however, and in its totality.

Milesius wrote:But if it is true, as Clements says, that it is not so much vocabulary and style that prove the author of chs. 1-39 could not have written chs. 40-66, but that the latter chapters seem to have been written to another historical context than the author's own,16 perhaps it is the scholarly understanding of the phenomenon of biblical prophecy that needs to be corrected, not the traditional view of the book's authorship. (John Oswalt. The book of Isaiah: Chapters 40-66. Eerdmans, 1998)


This is begging the question quite flagrantly.

Milesius wrote:Perhaps. Neither of us have a window into his mind though.


True, we must rely on what little information we have, and it stands out as strikingly negligent of Jeremiah if Deutero-Isaiah did in fact exist when he wrote. These are the kinds of things that raise questions, especially when the only real evidence for single authorship (similarity in style) is something that is quite easily and quite commonly faked.

Milesius wrote:I'll have to check it out.


I'm interested in what you have to say.

Milesius wrote:*I don't have in mind Mormons here.


Of course not.
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_maklelan
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Re: Evidence

Post by _maklelan »

Milesius wrote:No.


So we can't find any scholars who argue for single authorship on proper methodological grounds, we don't see any critical scholars bothering to engage the few scholars who do make the argument, and the scholars who do make the argument (I've yet to see any I would call "serious") are all employed by devotional universities. I would say it's pretty safe to conclude the point is not seriously disputed within scholarship.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Evidence

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Mak,

So following your logic, all Book of Mormon scholarship deriving from BYU scholars, is inferior to all other scholarship.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Evidence

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Kevin Graham wrote:Mak,

So following your logic, all Book of Mormon scholarship deriving from BYU scholars, is inferior to all other scholarship.


I also appreciate that deutero-Isaiah is indisputable and post-exilic (which I agree with). Where does that leave deutero-Isaiah quotations in the Book of Mormon?
_maklelan
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Re: Evidence

Post by _maklelan »

Kevin Graham wrote:Mak,

So following your logic, all Book of Mormon scholarship deriving from BYU scholars, is inferior to all other scholarship.


Not at all. I'm pointing out that there is a very clear bias involved with the single authorship conclusion, which contributes to my point (which is primarily supported by other considerations) that it can't really be called "disputed" within the broader field of biblical scholarship. I was not at all trying to argue that scholarship from devotional institutions is inferior. I would be happy to acknowledge that certain ideas about the provenance of the Book of Mormon to which BYU scholars hold are on the losing end of not being considered "disputed" across the broader field of Book of Mormon studies (although that is a much smaller and a much more ideologically driven field with its own complicated dynamics).
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_maklelan
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Re: Evidence

Post by _maklelan »

Aristotle Smith wrote:I also appreciate that deutero-Isaiah is indisputable and post-exilic (which I agree with). Where does that leave deutero-Isaiah quotations in the Book of Mormon?


Obviously it's a big problem that not many people are willing to engage directly. I personally view the Book of Mormon as a very anaphoric and dynamic translation that incorporates much more of Smith's worldview and cultural influences than usually thought. I think it's just as much a composition as it is a translation.
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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Evidence

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

maklelan wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:I also appreciate that deutero-Isaiah is indisputable and post-exilic (which I agree with). Where does that leave deutero-Isaiah quotations in the Book of Mormon?


Obviously it's a big problem that not many people are willing to engage directly. I personally view the Book of Mormon as a very anaphoric and dynamic translation that incorporates much more of Smith's worldview and cultural influences than usually thought. I think it's just as much a composition as it is a translation.


Follow up question. Why, from a scholarly point of view, do you think it is a composition AND and translation? Why not just a composition?
_maklelan
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Re: Evidence

Post by _maklelan »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Follow up question. Why, from a scholarly point of view, do you think it is a composition AND and translation? Why not just a composition?


From an academic point of view I discount revelation and just treat it as a composition, but from a personal faith point of view I would say I feel it has been confirmed to me that it is the Word of God. While I don't know exactly what that means for the text, I see portions of it that fit better into an ancient rather than a 19th century provenance, and I'm happy to allow that revelation played some kind of role in its transmission from antiquity to today.
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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Evidence

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

maklelan wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:Follow up question. Why, from a scholarly point of view, do you think it is a composition AND and translation? Why not just a composition?


From an academic point of view I discount revelation and just treat it as a composition, but from a personal faith point of view I would say I feel it has been confirmed to me that it is the Word of God. While I don't know exactly what that means for the text, I see portions of it that fit better into an ancient rather than a 19th century provenance, and I'm happy to allow that revelation played some kind of role in its transmission from antiquity to today.


Allow me to get your opinion on my situation.

I still have fond feelings for the Book of Mormon, and believe that it also contains the Word of God in some sense. However, I have concluded that being the Word of God does not imply translation, nor ancient provenance. Indeed, the overwhelming majority of the text fits better in a 19th century context in my opinion.

Consequently, I think that the actual theology of the Book of Mormon actually better represents Methodism, than it does modern Mormonism. This makes sense because the most immediate theological context for the Book of Mormon was the Methodism of Joseph Smith's day. By accident/fate/whatever I am now a Methodist (UMC). In my opinion a logical conclusion to the evidence is that Joseph Smith composed the Book of Mormon, that it's contents make people feel good for the same reason 19th century Methodism made people feel good, and that a valid response to thinking the Book of Mormon is inspired is to join a church other than the LDS church (perhaps UMC, though I acknowledge that the UMC has evolved a lot since the days of frontier Methodist preachers). This solution appeals to me because it reduces the distance and dissonance created by a strict separation between faith and reason/scholarship.

Again, not looking to convince you, just looking for your thoughts on the matter.
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