New Order Mormonism is so freaking stupid

[_Blixa]

Personally, I hate ketchup, but Heinz is still raking it in from all the poor deluded fools who disagree with me. Go figure.

And some like Billy Joel. Go figure.

[_Tator]

Isn't "morality" a religious thing?

Can't the non-religious be moral?

[_Jersey Girl]

New Order Mormonism is so freaking stupid

I don't understand it at all. If you are smart enough to realize that the Mormon church is fake after being raised in the church you should be smart enough to see the negative effect that it has on people. The sense of community you get does not justify being part of a sexist, racist and homophobic organization.

Maybe I can help you understand or examine your own thinking.

Let me confine my comments to the posters on this board. I know, fairly intimately, three active LDS on this board whom I would describe is NOM. I count myself fortunate to have have met two of these in real life and spoken to one more than once via phone. You guys can identify yourselves if you feel moved to do so or if you think it matters. (I know you're reading this thread :-)

They are among the only posters on this board who know my full name and have my private email address. They know where I work, what I do, know my family members names, etc. I have let them "inside" of my real life. Why?

Because I dig them. :-)

These are the folks who were once faceless, voiceless, non-animated posters that I was strongly drawn to. They think on their feet, express their own unique perspectives regarding a variety of issues not the least of which is their religion and religious culture.

The quality that drew me to them was their strong independence. They are independent thinkers and extremely outspoken.

They are much like me. :-)

I don't know what makes you think, malaise, that a group of individuals who are "smart enough" to see the flaws and what one might describe as "negative" aspects of their religious culture and church, are not smart enough to transmit their (perhaps) healthier perspectives to their children.

That flies in the face of what you are suggesting. You are suggesting intelligence without the ability to act on it.

I can think of any number of reasons to stay in the LDS church even when one's thinking has allowed them to take a critical look at some of the doctrines, history, and practices.

The culture, the contacts, the sense of community, traditions and tribe.

Like it or not, all human beings benefit from being a part of a tribe. A sense of belonging is paramount to our health and development as human beings.

What looks to you to be "freaking stupid", looks to me like a group of people who have chosen a new and different path, the road less traveled.

While you likely credit yourself for finding your own path, you appear to deny it of them.

In my view, that's freaking hypocritical.

Jersey Girl

[_Yoda]

That's my Jersey Girl friend! :-)

I'm the one she has talked to on the phone. The only reason we haven't met in real life is that we live too freakin' far apart!!

Lord help the shopping malls if we ever end up in the same city! LOL

[_moksha]

The sense of community you get does not justify being part of a sexist, racist and homophobic organization.

We then need to move to the 22nd Century, unless the coming conflict between the United States and China over the World Bank moving to Beijing in 2076 proves impossible to halt. Nuclear escalation will result in sexist, racist and homophobic organizations of the future, as well as giant roaches, lizard people and Mormon Democrats.

In the here and now, we can do the best we can with what we've got.

[_honorentheos]

...Mormon Democrats.

Now you're just making stuff up. ;)

[_asbestosman]

Because everyone knows that when a man divorces his wife, she automatically and immediately loses all access to and influence over any children they had together.

MsJack said it before I could.

Look, I agree that NOM is generally a bad idea. However, I can see it as the lesser of evils in certain situations.

Sock Puppet mentions that governments will sometimes do things we find repugnant. While I grant there is a difference in that my current government allows us to vote on many issues, in many ways I don't really get much of a choice. No matter who I elect for president or congress, you can be pretty sure that some repugnant things are still going to happen (at least among viable candidates).

Also, it is not the case that feedback is impossible for the church shy of voting with feet. While the power structure in Mormonism is set to be heavilytop-down, there are feedback loops in place via activation / participation rates (temple work, home teaching), conversion rates, birth rates, tithing, what the media publishes, etc.

[_malaise]

Hey genius, you do realize that when you say things like this:



you undercut your ability to say that the LDS church is a



Furthermore, your entire argument can no longer be that anyone has a moral obligation to point out the evils of the church, nor to leave it. Any statements you make must be of the form, "I, malaise, think it is a moral obligation for me that...fill in whatever..., but that's only for me."

Basically, you have rendered your entire thread pointless.

Of course I can. The belief that the subjective nature of morality means you cannot believe others are morally obligated to do certain things for moral reasons is itself a subjective judgment. I do not share it and believe there is nothing wrong with holding others to my subjective criteria.


Secondly, that is a matter of fact. It doesn't matter if I like it or not.

[_malaise]

Maliase,

It's obvious that you really don't know much about NOM's...or at least the ones I know...nor do you have any idea how I balance the Church in my life.



I have two daughters; neither one of them feel inferior to anyone. They are both in college, work part-time with special needs kids, and are extremely self-assured young women.

If they buy into the LDS church then they have been told they are inferior to men in a number of ways. Whether or not they as individuals internalized those messages is another matter.

My best friend is gay; he is a voice student of mine. He also taught drama to both my girls when they were in High School. My friend is welcome in our home at any time, and, we actually asked him to look in on my oldest daughter when she had to work, and my husband and I went on Spring Break to the beach. My friend happens to be very good with cars, and my daughter's car was acting up, so it was nice to have someone nearby who could help her in an emergency. So much for teaching my children that homosexuals are evil.

Most people learn that homosexuals are evil at church. Whether or not your children did is also irrelevant. the plural of anecdote is not data.

As far as drinking is concerned, with all of the drunk driving deaths and alcoholism that exists, I'm not really too uncomfortable raising my kids in a "dry" home. I do agree that it would be nice if the Church changed their view on moderation in this area, because I, personally, see nothing wrong with a nice wine and food pairing.

Like Kish and others have stated here, I think that everyone has to choose a path that best suits them, and best suits their own family's needs.

You seem very insensitive to those of us who have grown up in the Church, and have family and extended loved ones who are very much a part of the Mormon culture. I would be curious as to your background concerning the Church, and whether or not you have ever had to face this type of situation.

[_malaise]

Maybe I can help you understand or examine your own thinking.

Let me confine my comments to the posters on this board. I know, fairly intimately, three active LDS on this board whom I would describe is NOM. I count myself fortunate to have have met two of these in real life and spoken to one more than once via phone. You guys can identify yourselves if you feel moved to do so or if you think it matters. (I know you're reading this thread :-)

They are among the only posters on this board who know my full name and have my private email address. They know where I work, what I do, know my family members names, etc. I have let them "inside" of my real life. Why?

Because I dig them. :-)

These are the folks who were once faceless, voiceless, non-animated posters that I was strongly drawn to. They think on their feet, express their own unique perspectives regarding a variety of issues not the least of which is their religion and religious culture.

The quality that drew me to them was their strong independence. They are independent thinkers and extremely outspoken.

They are much like me. :-)

I don't know what makes you think, malaise, that a group of individuals who are "smart enough" to see the flaws and what one might describe as "negative" aspects of their religious culture and church, are not smart enough to transmit their (perhaps) healthier perspectives to their children.

That's right. Especially since other people in the church will also be able to influence them, and if both parents are not nom, that is exactly what I expect to see.

That flies in the face of what you are suggesting. You are suggesting intelligence without the ability to act on it.

I can think of any number of reasons to stay in the LDS church even when one's thinking has allowed them to take a critical look at some of the doctrines, history, and practices.

The culture, the contacts, the sense of community, traditions and tribe.

Like it or not, all human beings benefit from being a part of a tribe. A sense of belonging is paramount to our health and development as human beings.

Pathetic and weak humans need groups like the Mormon church to belong to. It's amusing that you think all people share your pathetic need to feel connected to people you don't even know.

What looks to you to be "freaking stupid", looks to me like a group of people who have chosen a new and different path, the road less traveled.

While you likely credit yourself for finding your own path, you appear to deny it of them.

In my view, that's freaking hypocritical.

Jersey Girl