My 13 year-old son explains the reason for polygamy

[_lostindc]

Hey Lost! How is your progress in moving to Utah going? Do you, by chance, want to live in a suburb in the southern part of SL county?

My son just nodded in silence. They don't care much about it because it is all a boring tale. They are more interested in the nuts and bolts of life: animals, sports, cardboard boxes, etc

You are probably right about nor caring much at this point.

As far as moving, that is a no go so far. Acceptable job prospects are slim and I have a good thing going in this area so I guess I have to hold out.

[_Some Schmo]

But then we'd be getting to a matter of subjective opinion, it seems to me. How many lies qualify one to be known as a liar? Is subject matter for which one lies a consideration as to defining one as a liar?

As I said, calling someone a liar is pretty meaningless.

I don't know, but I think if you write an entire book of fiction and try to pass it off as history, and start an entire false religion, I think it qualifies you for liar status. I believe you've met the minimum requirement.

[_stemelbow]

"Liar", I believe, is the one who routinely chooses deception in favor of his/her own self interest. Clearly we see this in Joseph Smith.

But clearly we don't. In order to go with your definition we'd have to pretty much be reading the mind of people. As it is any of his lies could have been for purposes you simply aren't privy too.

[_stemelbow]

Denouncing polygamy publicly and slandering those who accuse you of it while practicing it privately should count as serious lying by anyone's definition.

So its not te amount of lying per se, but whether its serious or not?

[_Chap]

"Liar", I believe, is the one who routinely chooses deception in favor of his/her own self interest. Clearly we see this in Joseph Smith.

But clearly we don't. In order to go with your definition we'd have to pretty much be reading the mind of people. As it is any of his lies could have been for purposes you simply aren't privy too.

To help us understand you, please give us some examples of what someone would have to do in order for you to call that person a 'liar'.

Or, if you do not use that word at all in your normal speech (which I take leave to doubt), please tell us what word you do use to describe people who you believe to have been deliberately and persistently untruthful on important matters.

[Guest]

But clearly we don't. In order to go with your definition we'd have to pretty much be reading the mind of people. As it is any of his lies could have been for purposes you simply aren't privy too.

So lying, according to you, is ok as long as the reason is good? The things you people will say to defend your LDS leaders are shocking...So, "lying for the lord" is acceptable to you? Maybe you should tell us what "purposes" are acceptable to lie about....

[_Buffalo]

Denouncing polygamy publicly and slandering those who accuse you of it while practicing it privately should count as serious lying by anyone's definition.

So its not te amount of lying per se, but whether its serious or not?

All of the above. Frequency of. Shamelessness of. Depth of. Etc. I read in the Gospel Principles manual that even leaving out information counts as lying, and is a sin. So what happens when you constantly lie in public about your polygamous marriages, and act very offended at the allegation?

[_Molok]

But clearly we don't. In order to go with your definition we'd have to pretty much be reading the mind of people. As it is any of his lies could have been for purposes you simply aren't privy too.

So lying, according to you, is ok as long as the reason is good? The things you people will say to defend your LDS leaders are shocking...So, "lying for the lord" my be acceptable to you? Maybe you should tell us what "purposes" are acceptable to lie about....

If you lived in Nazi germany, would you lie about hiding jewish families in your home? Would you feel like it wouuld be wrong to lie then?

[_Buffalo]

http://LDS.org/manual/gospel-principles ... y?lang=eng

Honesty Is a Principle of Salvation

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What would society be like if everyone were perfectly honest?

The 13th article of faith says, “We believe in being honest.” The Book of Mormon tells us about a group of people who were “distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things; and they were firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end” (Alma 27:27). Because of their honesty, these people were noted by their fellowmen and by God. It is important to learn what honesty is, how we are tempted to be dishonest, and how we can overcome this temptation.

Complete honesty is necessary for our salvation. President Brigham Young said, “If we accept salvation on the terms it is offered to us, we have got to be honest in every thought, in our reflections, in our meditations, in our private circles, in our deals, in our declarations, and in every act of our lives” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 293).

God is honest and just in all things (see Alma 7:20). We too must be honest in all things to become like Him. The brother of Jared testified, “Yea, Lord, I know that thou … art a God of truth, and canst not lie” (Ether 3:12). In contrast, the devil is a liar. In fact, he is the father of lies (see 2 Nephi 9:9). “Those who choose to cheat and lie and deceive and misrepresent become his slaves” (Mark E. Petersen, in Conference Report, Oct. 1971, 65; or Ensign, Dec. 1971, 73).

Honest people love truth and justice. They are honest in their words and actions. They do not lie, steal, or cheat.
To Lie Is Dishonest
For teachers: This chapter contains three sections that describe forms of dishonesty: lying, stealing, and cheating. You might consider dividing class members or family members into three groups. Assign each group one of these three sections. Ask the individuals in each group to silently read their assigned section and consider the forms of dishonesty described in that section. Then discuss the sections as a class or as a family. Ask how we can be honest in each of the situations described.

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.
To Steal Is Dishonest

Jesus taught, “Thou shalt not steal” (Matthew 19:18). Stealing is taking something that does not belong to us. When we take what belongs to someone else or to a store or to the community without permission, we are stealing. Taking merchandise or supplies from an employer is stealing. Copying music, movies, pictures, or written text without the permission of the copyright owners is dishonest and is a form of theft. Accepting more change or goods than one should is dishonest. Taking more than our share of anything is stealing.
To Cheat Is Dishonest

We cheat when we give less than we owe, or when we get something we do not deserve. Some employees cheat their employers by not working their full time; yet they accept full pay. Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28:8). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty. Providing inferior service or merchandise is cheating.
We Must Not Excuse Our Dishonesty

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What happens to us spiritually when we excuse our dishonesty?

People use many excuses for being dishonest. People lie to protect themselves and to have others think well of them. Some excuse themselves for stealing, thinking they deserve what they took, intend to return it, or need it more than the owner. Some cheat to get better grades in school or because “everyone else does it” or to get even.

These excuses and many more are given as reasons for dishonesty. To the Lord, there are no acceptable reasons. When we excuse ourselves, we cheat ourselves and the Spirit of God ceases to be with us. We become more and more unrighteous.
We Can Be Completely Honest

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What does it mean to be completely honest?

To become completely honest, we must look carefully at our lives. If there are ways in which we are being even the least bit dishonest, we should repent of them immediately.

When we are completely honest, we cannot be corrupted. We are true to every trust, duty, agreement, or covenant, even if it costs us money, friends, or our lives. Then we can face the Lord, ourselves, and others without shame. President Joseph F. Smith counseled, “Let every man’s life be so that his character will bear the closest inspection, and that it may be seen as an open book, so that he will have nothing to shrink from or be ashamed of” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 252).

* •

In what ways does our honesty or dishonesty affect how we feel about ourselves?

Additional Scriptures

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D&C 50:17 (speak only by the spirit of truth)
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D&C 76:103–6 (destination of liars)
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D&C 42:27 (commandment not to speak evil of neighbors)
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Exodus 20:15–16 (commandments not to steal and not to bear false witness)
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D&C 42:20, 84–85; 59:6 (forbidden to steal)
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D&C 3:2 (God is honest)
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D&C 10:25–28 (Satan deceives)

[_stemelbow]

And since the application of any term that is not wholly logical or quantitative is a subjective matter, it is pretty meaningless to use any descriptive terms apart from such examples as 'right-angled' or 'longer than 3 meters'.

Do you get the point?

I do get your point. Sadly its apparent you didn't get mine. Categorizing particular people with a negative label when that person is doing that which is done by eveyone doesn't really help. Everyone lies. If my wife is holding my hand she can't reasonably be said to be a long ways from me. If you pee, there's no reason to lable you a pisser. everyone pisses. It wouldn't make any sense.

In your effort to avoid any judgement about whether or not Joseph Smith was publicly, frequently and substantially untruthful to a degree that might justify him being called a 'liar', you seem prepared to abandon the habits of normal language use altogether.

Specific examples in which he lied ought to be taken into consideration then. But how many examples put soeone in the liar category? What types of lies must be employed to put someone in the liar category? Whose determining that? Its all too subjective and the appeal to the term liar in reference to someone only seems to be emoting to me.