Something Troubling in Sunday School

[_bcspace]

It is an interesting thought that we pay lip service to the superior moral attributes of women in order to justify their actual subservient position.

I think the attribution to the superiority of a women's spirituality (pardon the change) in the LDS Church is part of LDS mythology. Men are just as spiritual as women. But the nature of their spirituality is different.

I can name dozens of women that would love to be bishops....my TBM mother (and all her friends) included...

I think you're exaggerating.

Unfortunately, they have convinced themselves that elohim doesn't want them to lead a congregation of like minded believers because they happen to have female parts...

I don't think it's because of how God made them physically.

Its sad to me that elderly-baby-boomers, like yourself,

How old do you think I am? What age qualifies as elderly?

have adopted such sexist/dated/out-of-touch beliefs in order to justify your need to be Mormon...I guess it makes sense considering your need to emulate the crazy old men that lead the LDS church....

What sexist beliefs have I adopted?

[_just me]

Great comment, consig.

There is this pedestal effect or cult of motherhood that can happen with sexism. Because the women are placed in a position below the men, or with less power and authority, they are often put up on a pedestal. We can see it happen in history. It kind of comes of as placating and patronizing.

It is actually something that I think is very difficult to get out of our heads, too. I believe we have some men here who have women on a pedestal. There are women who do not want off the pedestal.

I highly recommend the book Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminsm edited by Maxine Hanks. It is amazing.

Here is a portion from a chapter by Sonja Farnsworth:

Author Kate Millett has illustrated how a similar type of extravagant compliment, which she called "chivalrous pretense," was a regular feature of anti-suffragist speech. Opponents of women's rights routinely portrayed women as beings so aggrandized that for them equality was superfluous. [...]

Although women give birth because they have the required physical equipment, Mormon rhetoric tends to express this ability as a special talent which men can never master. The result, of course, is a meaningless, artificial compliment. For example, Boyd K. Packer reassured women that "in the women's part, she is not just equal to man, she is his superior! She can do that which he can never do; not in all eternity can he do it." Even more revealing about the dubious nature of this praise was the fact that although his talk "A Tribute to Women" took sincere pains to stress gender equality, Elder Packer felt compelled to make the following statement: "I have seven sons and three daughters, and that, I have often been heard to say, is about equal value."

So, no, it appears that actual equality is not believed in in the LDS church.

[_MsJack]

But then she realized the implication of what she said and hastened to append an impromptu homily about how she couldn't become a bishop, of course.

She clasped her hands, turned her eyes to heaven, and thanked God that women could not hold the priesthood. "I don't want it," she continued. "You men can have it. That's fine with me."

"Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they’re so frightfully clever. I’m really awfully glad I’m a Beta, because I don’t work so hard." ~ From Brave New World by Aldous Huxley

As to what woman would want the priesthood, I'm not going to speak for Mormons. But my own denomination (Evangelical Covenant Church) currently has more female MDiv graduates coming out of North Park every year than it can actually place. The senior pastor of my congregation is a woman in her early 30s. She even had a baby while serving as senior pastor and somehow, the world hasn't stopped.

Frankly, I don't know what woman wouldn't want to lay her hands on her children's heads and bless them if her religion advocated that as a spiritual practice. A few stage-fright types wouldn't like it, sure, but the rest of the women tut-tutting about all that horrible responsibility just sound lazy and selfish to me. You wouldn't want something that's supposed to enable you to better serve and bless the lives of others? Really?

(Note that I don't think that said women are lazy and selfish. Just that, in their attempts to justify what's obviously an unfair restriction, they're repeating a scripted response that sounds lazy and selfish.)

Paul said to eagerly desire the greater gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31). If priesthood is really all that Mormons say that it is, I simply cannot fathom why any person would not want it.

[_just me]

Deborah was a judge in Israel. Isn't that what we call bishops? She was totally a bishop.

[_consiglieri]

She was totally a bishop.

And a bishop you wouldn't want to cross, from what I hear.

[_Buffalo]

I'm sure if LDS women allowed themselves to be frank, most of them would love to have the priesthood. I remember reading that women tend to be more religious than men - and more superstitious, too.

[Guest]

Quoting from Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843, by D. Michael Quinn:

Two weeks after he organized the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith announced his intention to confer priesthood on women. He told them on 30 March 1842 that "the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood" and that he was "going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day-as in Paul's day."

On 28 April 1842 the prophet returned to this subject. He told the women that "the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them that they may be able to detect everything false" [...] "I now turn the key to you in the name of God, and this society shall rejoice[...]"

His private journal, called the Book of the Law of the Lord, specified the priesthood promise in his instructions to the women on 28 April 1842: "gave a lecture on the pries[t]hood shewing [sic] how the Sisters would come in possession of the privileges & blessings & gifts of the priesthood & that signs would follow them. such as healing the sick casting out devils &c. & that they might attain unto these blessings. by a virtuous life & conversation & diligence in keeping all the commandments."

There are lots more references to women having priestood.

[Guest]

On the other hand, I can honestly say I envy the woman’s “curse” and promise and can easily see why they would want no part of all the “thorns and nauseous weeds” and “sweat of thy brow” stuff, but would much prefer the simple promise of salvation via childbirth, and the whole “clean every whit” verses the man’s need to struggle, that through their “faithfulness” they may be found clean.
Heck, what woman out there wants to switch curses/promises with a man?

[_DarkHelmet]

I wonder why blacks were given the priesthood.

[_schreech]

I think you're exaggerating.

About what? The fact that I know many women who feel like second class members of the church since they can't serve in real leadership positions...I am guessing, based on your warped/myopic beliefs, that you probably don't associate with many of these uppity type women who don't know their place in the LDS structure....

I don't think it's because of how God made them physically.

? - Um ok...so you believe humans born with woman parts should be able to lead an LDS congregation as bishop? If that is the case, then I take back what I said about you.

What sexist beliefs have I adopted?

"So you believe humans born with woman parts should be able to lead an LDS congregation as bishop? If that is the case, then I take back what I said about you."....