Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Jason Bourne wrote:I think this broad brushing is unfair. Some LDS Apologetics is quite good. And at least two bright EV Scholars a number of years ago would not agree with your broad brush comment.


I chose my words carefully. I stand by "almost uniformly bad." It would help to know where you are coming from by citing what you think of as good LDS apologetics. I'm sure there's good LDS apologetics here and there, but by and large I do think it's bad.

I don't consider the Carl Mosser and Paul Owen article to refute this for several reasons. As just one example, the article is profuse with its praise of Hugh Nibley. However, I think Hugh Nibley is one of the leading reasons that there is so much bad LDS apologetics.
_Yoda

Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Yoda »

Daniel C Peterson wrote:Double post... what is wrong with this website!


(Moderator Note)Please do not impersonate known posters.
_Jhall118
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Jhall118 »

liz3564 wrote:
Daniel C Peterson wrote:Double post... what is wrong with this website!


(Moderator Note)Please do not impersonate known posters.


Never did I say that I was Daniel Peterson! I even carefully wrote in my profile that I was only a fan to avoid breaking any crazy Washington internet laws. But fair enough. I am sorry.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson
_DrW
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _DrW »

Daniel C Peterson wrote:Of course they are compatible. People with doctorates in real fields (i.e. not the humanities) do a lot of apologetic work.

Archaeologists, Biologists, Astrophysicists etc. All of them are working on understanding the world that God created. If the two were not intellectually compatible, this would not be so.

Welcome back, Dr. Peterson, (I trust that it is really you.)

There is an important difference in approach for physical scientists when working in their secular profession as compared to when they are working in their religious calling as an LDS apologist. A great deal or partitioning and compartmentalization must occur before the transition can be made.

In the enterprise of science, one generally is engaged in generating evidence through observation or experimentation, and using that evidence to look for, compare, evaluate and test possible answers. It is an "evidence looking for answers" process.

In the enterprise of religion (and especially apologetics), one is engaged in generating answers and looking for confirming evidence. Apologetics is an "answers looking for evidence" process.

Pure science eventually gets one to the right answer about how that world works. Pure religion almost never does.

So when you claim that there is "intellectual compatibility" between science and religion, you may be expressing a wish, or demonstrating that you have hope or faith that this is the case. But it clearly is not so.

Religion and science are diametrically opposed, by definition. One is based on credible, reproducible physical evidence, logic and reason - and the other is based on myth, willful ignorance, unfounded belief, irrationality, and in the case of Mormonism, on some pretty tall tales that can be readily identified as such.

Seems that we have been here before, have we not?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Jhall118
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Jhall118 »

@ the OP.

Apologetics by definition contradicts intellectual honesty. Mormon apologetics assumes the church is true, and must move from that starting point. This is fundamentally different from every scientific discipline. If apologists were not this way, they would not be giving apology's, but doing actual science.

I am assuming that intellectual honesty is basically just using the scientific method properly.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

DrW wrote:Religion and science are diametrically opposed, by definition.


Utter and complete BS.

And, you're responding to an obvious fake.
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Jhall118 wrote:I am assuming that intellectual honesty is basically just using the scientific method properly.


I'm glad to know that all mathematicians, philosophers, and historians are intellectually dishonest since they don't use the scientific method at all.

ETA: I'm also thinking that today must be "Atheist Stupid Argument Day," so I'll stop responding as I assume I am just getting in the way of today's festivities.

And no, to respond to the obvious forthcoming question, I don't think all atheistic arguments are stupid. Atheists make quite good arguments, just like theists.
_Quasimodo
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Quasimodo »

sock puppet wrote:So, can there be such a thing as an ethical apologist, one who strains and twists evidence, old and new, to allow through the narrowest strand of light of possibility for a preconceived religious notion?


If an apologist were to give an apology in the alternate sense of the word; "Sorry, everyone. It turns out the Book of Abraham really is all horse biscuits". Then that would be an ethical apologist.

Short of that, I don't think so.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.

"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
_DrW
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _DrW »

liz3564 wrote:
Daniel C Peterson wrote:Double post... what is wrong with this website!


(Moderator Note)Please do not impersonate known posters.


Never did I say that I was Daniel Peterson! I even carefully wrote in my profile that I was only a fan to avoid breaking any crazy Washington internet laws. But fair enough. I am sorry.

What??

I wrote all that and it wasn't even the real DCP??

I am shocked - shocked, I tell you.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Jhall118
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Re: Is Apologetics incompatible with Intellectual Honesty?

Post by _Jhall118 »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Jhall118 wrote:I am assuming that intellectual honesty is basically just using the scientific method properly.


I'm glad to know that all mathematicians, philosophers, and historians are intellectually dishonest since they don't use the scientific method at all.

ETA: I'm also thinking that today must be "Atheist Stupid Argument Day," so I'll stop responding as I assume I am just getting in the way of today's festivities.

And no, to respond to the obvious forthcoming question, I don't think all atheistic arguments are stupid. Atheists make quite good arguments, just like theists.


Scientific method probably wasn't the best term to use. I didn't mean the "testing predictions in a lab" part, as much as I meant the "not starting with a preconceived conclusion". Philosophers, Historians, and Mathematicians certainly don't do the former, but they do not engage in the latter either. Apologists do.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

-Thomas Jefferson
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