Without religion, so much beauty would be lost | DeseretNews

[Guest]

Dante's "Divine Comedy"? Erased. Likewise, Milton's "Paradise Lost," Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" and Goethe's "Faust" would be gone, as would the Arthurian legends. No psalms, no book of Isaiah, no 1 Corinthians 13, no King James Bible, no Luther Bible. We couldn't read Shusako Endo's "Silence," most poems of T.S. Eliot, the novels of G.K. Chesterton and Dostoevsky, or the writings of C.S. Lewis. There would be no Augustine, no Aquinas, no Kierkegaard. "Les Misérables" would make no sense. Lincoln's majestic "Second Inaugural Address" would be unthinkable.

Emphasis mine.

I can't help but wonder if Daniel has actually read 'The Canterbury Tales.' It might not be the best example of art influenced by religion.

From 'The Miller's Tale' (modern language):

The window she unbarred, and that in haste.
"Have done," said she, "come on, and do it fast,
Before we're seen by any neighbour's eye."
This Absalom did wipe his mouth all dry;
Dark was the night as pitch, aye dark as coal,
And through the window she put out her hole.
And Absalom no better felt nor worse,
But with his mouth he kissed her naked arse
Right greedily, before he knew of this.
Aback he leapt- it seemed somehow amiss,
For well he knew a woman has no beard;
He'd felt a thing all rough and longish haired,
And said, "Oh fie, alas! What did I do?"
"Teehee!" she laughed, and clapped the, window to;
And Absalom went forth a sorry pace.
"A beard! A beard!" cried clever Nicholas,
"Now by God's corpus, this goes fair and well!"
This hapless Absalom, he heard that yell,
And on his lip, for anger, he did bite;
And to himself he said, "I will requite!"



...and I'm not even going to get into the rest.

[_Quasimodo]

From Dr. Peterson's article:

It's doubtful that even most so-called religious wars have been primarily about religion, and that an entirely faithless society would be a utopia.

I don't think there is any doubt at all. All the best wars have been religious. The Crusades. The Holocaust (a driving force in Nazi policy) and all the earlier persecutions of the Jews throughout history. The horrible atrocities committed during the separation of India and Pakistan. The multiple military conquests of the Muslims in the spreading of Islam. The Spanish Inquisition. The promotion of slavery in the New World by the Roman Catholic Church. The genocide of Native Americans. The list is very long.

Dr. Dan amusingly lists Canterbury Tales as an example of religious writing (it's blatantly sacrilegious humor, if you read between the lines). He mentions Les Misérables as a defense of religious works. Hugo was as anti-religious as they came at that time (Inspector Javert is the ultimate pious villain). The Hunchback is another good example of his distaste for the Church.

The Renascence was probably the greatest leap forward in human art and science since the Greeks, and was a deliberate move away from religious control. Most of what is now considered the greatest art is secular. The great strides humanity has made in the sciences stems from that break from religion.

The article is mostly Dr. Dan's wishful thinking.

[_Pollypinks]

Universities from religion? Really? I'm not that learned. Did religion keep the Constitutionalists from providing freedom to slaves? Because the Constitution itself seems to grant personhood to all, but maybe I'm all wet on this one because I'm not conservative enough to spout the Constitution in arguments. Like back ground checks for paranoid violent schizophrenics trying to purchase guns. Not that they wouldn't get them anyway. They would. But clearly the laws on the books are not being applied in any of the states concerning gun laws. I heard a judge on t.v. state the Constitution guaranteed abortion. Any thoughts here? I don't see it, and I'm pro-choice. I think many in European countries who studied law during and after the Reformation were influenced highly by religion, but now, it's a different story.

[_Dr. Shades]

When religion held complete and total control over the populace, why do we refer to it as "the Dark Ages?"

[_Morley]

The nearly seven decades since the end of World War II have been the most secular in human history. Have they produced exceptional literary, artistic and musical masterpieces?

The jury is still out on that.

What secular event could be more inspiring than the moon landing? What could be more powerfully tragic than the attacks of 9/11? Have they produced great drama, poetry, music or art?

What has the last couple of hundred years of Mormonism produced in the way of art? Has Mormonism inspired exceptional literary, artistic and musical masterpieces? I don't know. I'm sincerely asking.

Certainly there are the temples, the Tabernacle Choir, the Osmonds... and much more I'm sure I'm missing.

If one accepts the theory that religion begets art, then the 'Restoration of All Things,' the 'One True Religion on the Face of the Earth,' should perhaps beget the best art on earth.

Has it?

I'm trusting Marg and Stak to tell me where my reasoning falls apart. ;)

[_Buffalo]

The nearly seven decades since the end of World War II have been the most secular in human history. Have they produced exceptional literary, artistic and musical masterpieces?

The jury is still out on that.

What secular event could be more inspiring than the moon landing? What could be more powerfully tragic than the attacks of 9/11? Have they produced great drama, poetry, music or art?

What has the last couple of hundred years of Mormonism produced in the way of art? Has Mormonism inspired exceptional literary, artistic and musical masterpieces? I don't know. I'm sincerely asking.

Certainly there are the temples, the Tabernacle Choir, the Osmonds... and much more I'm sure I'm missing.

If one accepts the theory that religion begets art, then the 'Restoration of All Things,' the 'One True Religion on the Face of the Earth,' should perhaps beget the best art on earth.

Has it?

I'm trusting Marg and Stak to tell me where my reasoning falls apart. ;)

I'm not aware of any believing Mormons that have produced anything worthwhile. From time to time you get disaffected Mormons who come up with something good.

I gather DCP has rather stodgy tastes, and has a "craftsman" approach to art that you often see with conservative art appreciators. I'm sure he's uttered the following many times: "That isn't art! A third grader could have done it!" I'm sure every painting he admires was produced by some artist receiving patronage from some pre-industrial duke or baron.

In any case, in this, the most secular of times, as he puts it, quality of life and social justice is certainly better than they've ever been in human history. Art is subjective, and I hope he'll forgive me for not being moved by a stodgy reactionary's view of the decline of the arts (or his lazy attempt to link it to secularism).

[_Some Schmo]

Dr. Dan amusingly lists Canterbury Tales as an example of religious writing (it's blatantly sacrilegious humor, if you read between the lines). He mentions Les Misérables as a defense of religious works. Hugo was as anti-religious as they came at that time (Inspector Javert is the ultimate pious villain). The Hunchback is another good example of his distaste for the Church.

Well, the point remains, this stuff was inspired by religion, so he's correct.

Now let me tell you about this porn I watched the other night about a young priest who broke into a monastery full of sexually frustrated nuns... It was truly a work of art.

[_moksha]

In music, we would be without Bach's "St. Matthew Passion," Schubert's "Mass in G," Mozart's "Requiem," Vivaldi's "Gloria," Wagner's "Parzifal" and Handel's "Messiah." We'd have neither the musical compositions of John Tavener and Arvo Part nor the choral music of John Rutter. (For that matter, there wouldn't be many choirs.) Nor would we have gospel music.

Dante's "Divine Comedy"? Erased. Likewise, Milton's "Paradise Lost," Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" and Goethe's "Faust" would be gone, as would the Arthurian legends. No psalms, no book of Isaiah, no 1 Corinthians 13, no King James Bible, no Luther Bible. We couldn't read Shusako Endo's "Silence," most poems of T.S. Eliot, the novels of G.K. Chesterton and Dostoevsky, or the writings of C.S. Lewis. There would be no Augustine, no Aquinas, no Kierkegaard. "Les Misérables" would make no sense. Lincoln's majestic "Second Inaugural Address" would be unthinkable.

There would be no Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, or Yale, and, given the history of higher education, perhaps no colleges or universities at all.

Art history would be thoroughly revised. Michelangelo's Sistine ceiling, "David" and "Pieta"? Gone. Leonardo da Vinci's "Last Supper"? Never painted. Bernini's "St. Teresa in Ecstasy"? Never sculpted. Westminster Abbey? St. Paul's Cathedral? The cathedrals of Chartres, Salisbury and Notre Dame? Norway's stave churches? St. Basil's Cathedral? Istanbul's Hagia Sophia? The Byzantine mosaics at Ravenna? All gone. Makoto Fujimura's "The Four Holy Gospels"? Many of the works of Albrecht Dürer? Invisible. Rio de Janeiro's statue of "Christ the Redeemer"? Vanished.

The Deseret News is right. Without religion these religious works would vanish and we would have something else in their place.

[_Quasimodo]

Well, the point remains, this stuff was inspired by religion, so he's correct.

Now let me tell you about this porn I watched the other night about a young priest who broke into a monastery full of sexually frustrated nuns... It was truly a work of art.

You are correct, Schmo. Without the Church there would have been no Canterbury Cathedral to base Canterbury Tales on. I stand corrected.

Now, where can I find that porno with the nuns?

[_Morley]

Well, the point remains, this stuff was inspired by religion, so he's correct.

Now let me tell you about this porn I watched the other night about a young priest who broke into a monastery full of sexually frustrated nuns... It was truly a work of art.

You are correct, Schmo. Without the Church there would have been no Canterbury Cathedral to base Canterbury Tales on. I stand corrected.

Now, where can I find that porno with the nuns?