My Work Here is Done

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_sock puppet
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _sock puppet »

Droopy wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Dr Greg Smith seems determined to continue the old guard, and not be part of the Vanguard, as Bokovoy is.


Its really fascinating how, over the last couple of years, David Bokovoy, who does not agree in any sense with the critics of the church here on any theological subject, has become the darling of the anti-mopologists due to his starkly outré ideological and political views.

Interesting how one can have both feet set in two utterly different worlds at the same time. One of the apparent paradoxes of mortality, I suppose.


David Bokovoy thinks. He wrestles mentally with many issues of religion. His writing reveals this. But perhaps more importantly, absent from his writings is the scorched earth approach that is so typical of many of the MI/FAIR ilk.

You are right, Droopy, Bokovoy is liked by critics, despite his philosophical and theological differences with Mormon critics. He is respected by critics because of the very manner in which he comports himself in his approach to the points raised by critics, and in dealing with the critics personally.

He is an antithesis to the approach so taken by DCP/Hamblin/Midgley/Schryver.
_Simon Belmont

Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor Scratch wrote:At first, my interest was only in learning all I could about the many things that tend to be omitted from correlated, "official" LDS publications.


Things which are readily available through Deseret Book, BYU, and many other resources, to those who wish to know.

As I did this, though, I eventually encountered the work of the Mopologists (and again, I won't name names: you know who they are by now). I don't know that I've ever been more disgusted in my entire life. Will Bagley noted rather recently, in his Mormon Expressions podcast, that he very much feels badly about the way he was treated by these figures in Mormon Studies. (He characterized them as "vicious.") I continue to believe that the Mopologists are the most poisonous and evil element in contemporary Mormonism--worse, even, in my view, than anything that the institutional Church does. Being persuaded to give up huge chunks of your time and money under false pretenses is one thing; doing this and then getting crapped on and kicked in the teeth during moments of enormous spiritual pain is quite another.

In response to what I was seeing from the Mopologists, I felt that something needed to be done. Sure: there was already a fair amount of outspoken criticism directed at these apologists, but a lot of it was ineffective. What I noticed is that the apologists tended to work chiefly in the realm of aggressive, polemical rhetoric, which often meant that "objective," scholarly response to them was fruitless. People like Dan Vogel and Chris Smith can hold their own, and they subsist like rocks in the midst of the stream, but I think their arguments are drowned out by the endless invective and attack. For non-Mormon outsiders, the arguments of Vogel and Smith are like preaching to the choir. The audience that most needs to hear Vogel, Smith, et al. are the TBMs, but the arguments, in this case, are rendered ineffective by the apologists' well-honed use of ad hominem attack, polemics, and invective.

So, like I said, something needed to be done. The scales of justice had been thrown out of whack by the 30-odd-year war that the Mopologists waged on decent society. What I realized, as I surveyed this situation, is that the best strategy was to focus on the leaders of the Mopologetic polemical movement, and so that's what I did. I concentrated my scholarly efforts on breaking down and deconstructing the rhetorical strategies and tendencies of Mopologetics' most important leaders.


Apologetics was, is, and will continue to be for the indefinite future a response to 180+ years of criticism, anti-Mormonism, Violence and assassinations against the Mormons, extermination orders, hate publications and "ministries" of professional anti-Mormons, and of course Internet anti-Mormonism which resides in encouraging environments like MDB.

Nay, my brothers and sisters, it is not apologetics that are nasty; it never has been. It has been the 180+ years of vile criticism and villainy put endlessly forth against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And for what? So that a people could not, cannot, and likely will continue to not be able to practice their religion in peace [which the Constitution guarantees (unless, apparently, you ask Ed Decker, the Tanners, James White, or Scratch)].

Critics wrote the book on this behavior, and sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. Were it not for apologetics, critics, anti-Mormons, and tireless violence and bigotry of 180+ years would have gone uncontested. Apologetics is the answer. Apologetics is a response to critics.

Today, this leadership has retreated into near-silence, and I consider this a real victory.


This is an utter fantasy, of course. FAIR and the MI publish as much or more than they ever had. FAIR still holds their annual conference with record attendance. I still receive a meaty "FAIR journal" in my inbox regularly. Apologetics in the church is growing, and LDS scholarship with it.

Simply because people like myself didn't appreciate the endless ad hominem attacks by critics here does not mean he is "silent."

3-decades-long polemical assault, then I can't help feeling awfully good about my place in the grand scheme of things. This is a fundamental good. Now, I can already anticipate somebody saying that people deleting their MDB accounts or disappearing into the cyber-ether is "bad" on principle, to which I'd respond, simply, that if these folks hadn't created a poisonous atmosphere to begin with, there never would have been a need for a Mopologetics Studies Department at Cassius.


Critics and anti-Mormons, for 180+ years have created the poisonous atmosphere, and they now must sleep in the bed they made. Critics and anti-Mormons, not LDS apologetics, are the root cause here. Apologetics is a response to critics. No critics = no apologists. There is not a simpler truth than that.
Last edited by _Simon Belmont on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Yoda

Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Yoda »

Scratch wrote:Today, this leadership has retreated into near-silence, and I consider this a real victory.


Is this statement based on DCP's leaving MDB and decrease in participation on MAD, or is there more to it?

Has there been additional restructuring at MI and/or FAIR?
_Shulem
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Shulem »

Things which are readily available through Deseret Book, BYU, and many other resources, to those who wish to know.


Really? And what is the king's name written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3? Why did the founding prophet of Mormonism call one of the chief gods of Egypt a slave? Where is the scientific apologetic reasoning to prove these matters? BYU? Deseret Book? Fantasy land?

Joseph Smith made it up. He lied. Prove otherwise.

Paul O
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I can see that things, for some people, are getting rather heated and personal, and I regret that. I hope that the moderators will split off those comments which are clearly antagonistic to the spirit of my OP. I made an effort to leave names out of my OP for good reason, and I think it's something of a bummer that others--who surely meant well--have opted to steer things in a more specific, personal direction. I would prefer that mention of some specific individuals be eliminated from the thread. If this seems like too much work or effort, I understand, but I just wanted to throw my two cents out there.

Once again, I'd like to wish everyone a glorious Sunday on this beautiful October afternoon, with the hint of Autumn in the air.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Darth J
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Darth J »

Simon Belmont wrote:Things which are readily available through Deseret Book, BYU, and many other resources, to those who wish to know.


That's right! For example, the fact that Brigham Young taught that Adam is Heavenly Father can be found in The Millenial Star, which was an official church publication, on BYU's digital archives.

For another example, the Church's racist history of ecclesiastical apartheid was proudly proclaimed in The Church and the Negro, which was written by a teacher in church education and was sold at Deseret Book.

Apologetics was, is, and will continue to be for the indefinite future a response to 180+ years of criticism, anti-Mormonism, Violence and assassinations against the Mormons, extermination orders, hate publications and "ministries" of professional anti-Mormons, and of course Internet anti-Mormonism which resides in encouraging environments like MDB.


Roughly how much violence and how many assassinations has Daniel Peterson prevented, in your estimation?

And by the way, I think it's super that you continue to equivocate the Missouri extermination order to people saying on an internet message board that the Book of Mormon might possibly be a made-up story.

Nay, my brothers and sisters, it is not apologetics that are nasty; it never has been. It has been the 180+ years of vile criticism and villainy put endlessly forth against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And for what? So that a people could not, cannot, and likely will continue to not be able to practice their religion in peace [which the Constitution guarantees (unless, apparently, you ask Ed Decker, the Tanners, James White, or Scratch)].


1. In your opinion, has the Maxwell Institute been nice, kind, and tolerant to Rodney Meldrum?

2. The Constitution is a limitation on the powers of the government over individuals. It is not applicable between private individuals.

3. The Constitution also guarantees the right to criticize Mormonism.

Critics wrote the book on this behavior, and sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. Were it not for apologetics, critics, anti-Mormons, and tireless violence and bigotry of 180+ years would have gone uncontested. Apologetics is the answer. Apologetics is a response to critics.


And I say, it is about time we eliminate history, archaeology, biology, paleontology, anthropology, and all of these other fields that tirelessly speak out against the factual claims made by the LDS Church.

FAIR and the MI publish as much or more than they ever had. FAIR still holds their annual conference with record attendance. I still receive a meaty "FAIR journal" in my inbox regularly. Apologetics in the church is growing, and LDS scholarship with it.

Simply because people like Dr. Peterson didn't appreciate the endless ad hominem attacks by critics here does not mean he is "silent."


And as Mormon apologetics are to those of struggling faith as an anvil is to a drowning man, anti-Mormons should rejoice as FAIR continues to do their work for them.

Critics and anti-Mormons, for 180+ years have created the poisonous atmosphere, and they now must sleep in the bed they made. Critics and anti-Mormons, not LDS apologetics, are the root cause here. Apologetics is a response to critics. No critics = no apologists. There is not a simpler truth than that.
[/quote]

No falsifiable claims = no criticism of Mormonism

There is not a simpler truth than that.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Simon Belmont

Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I can see that things, for some people, are getting rather heated and personal, and I regret that. I hope that the moderators will split off those comments which are clearly antagonistic to the spirit of my OP. I made an effort to leave names out of my OP for good reason, and I think it's something of a bummer that others--who surely meant well--have opted to steer things in a more specific, personal direction. I would prefer that mention of some specific individuals be eliminated from the thread. If this seems like too much work or effort, I understand, but I just wanted to throw my two cents out there.

Once again, I'd like to wish everyone a glorious Sunday on this beautiful October afternoon, with the hint of Autumn in the air.


I see no such thing happening in this thread. I did mention one name, however I have now removed that mention.
_Simon Belmont

Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Darth J wrote:That's right! For example, the fact that Brigham Young taught that Adam is Heavenly Father can be found in The Millenial Star, which was an official church publication, on BYU's digital archives.


Your sad devotion to data mining has not helped you conjure up anything useful to aid your argument.


Roughly how much violence and how many assassinations has Daniel Peterson prevented, in your estimation?


I am sure you'll have no problem pointing out where I said apologetics was a prevention of 180+ years of anti-Mormonism.

It is, I have always maintained, a necessary response to it.

And by the way, I think it's super that you continue to equivocate the Missouri extermination order to people saying on an internet message board that the Book of Mormon might possibly be a made-up story.


Right, the doe-eyed anti-Mormons and the "hey... do you maybe... think... that... maybe it's a made up story? No offense or anything."

Rubbish. The most hateful and violent behavior has always come from critics and anti-Mormons. They began it, they perpetuated it for 180+ years. It is their fault, not ours.

1. In your opinion, has the Maxwell Institute been nice, kind, and tolerant to Rodney Meldrum?


Yup.

2. The Constitution is a limitation on the powers of the government over individuals. It is not applicable between private individuals.


It guarantees freedom of religion. A freedom I wish I could enjoy.

3. The Constitution also guarantees the right to criticize Mormonism.


Does it guarantee the right to tar and feather its leaders? To issue extermination orders?

And I say, it is about time we eliminate history, archaeology, biology, paleontology, anthropology, and all of these other fields that tirelessly speak out against the factual claims made by the LDS Church.


They don't. Information is not sentient, people are.

No falsifiable claims


Check.
_Darth J
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Darth J »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Darth J wrote:That's right! For example, the fact that Brigham Young taught that Adam is Heavenly Father can be found in The Millenial Star, which was an official church publication, on BYU's digital archives.


Your sad devotion to data mining has not helped you conjure up anything useful to aid your argument.


That's right. Those words on those scanned pages aren't really there. It's all an illusion.


Roughly how much violence and how many assassinations has Daniel Peterson prevented, in your estimation?


I am sure you'll have no problem pointing out where I said apologetics was a prevention of 180+ years of anti-Mormonism.

It is, I have always maintained, a necessary response to it.


"Were it not for apologetics, critics, anti-Mormons, and tireless violence and bigotry of 180+ years would have gone uncontested."

And by the way, I think it's super that you continue to equivocate the Missouri extermination order to people saying on an internet message board that the Book of Mormon might possibly be a made-up story.


Right, the doe-eyed anti-Mormons and the "hey... do you maybe... think... that... maybe it's a made up story? No offense or anything."

Rubbish. The most hateful and violent behavior has always come from critics and anti-Mormons. They began it, they perpetuated it for 180+ years. It is their fault, not ours.


Anti-Mormons are clearly responsible for the lack of a vast pre-Columbian civilization of Hebrews who practiced Christianity. It was the anti-Mormons who made the Book of Mormon not true.

1. In your opinion, has the Maxwell Institute been nice, kind, and tolerant to Rodney Meldrum?


Yup.


What would be the substantive difference between Greg Smith's hit piece on Meldrum and the average publication by the Tanners?

2. The Constitution is a limitation on the powers of the government over individuals. It is not applicable between private individuals.


It guarantees freedom of religion. A freedom I wish I could enjoy.


Really? Has the government at some level been depriving you of freedom of religion? Maybe you should file a civil rights lawsuit.

3. The Constitution also guarantees the right to criticize Mormonism.


Does it guarantee the right to tar and feather its leaders? To issue extermination orders?


Speech is not tarring and feathering, nor is it an extermination order. And the time period you are talking about is pre-14th Amendment. The First Amendment, like the rest of the Bill of Rights, does not apply directly to the states. The Supreme Court has applied it to the states through the 14th Amendment under the incorporation doctrine.

And in any case, the Constitution is irrelevant to the point (such as it is) you are trying to make. Tarring and feathering someone is a criminal act. It is not a violation of the Constitution, because the Constitution does not apply between private individuals.

And I say, it is about time we eliminate history, archaeology, biology, paleontology, anthropology, and all of these other fields that tirelessly speak out against the factual claims made by the LDS Church.


They don't. Information is not sentient, people are.


Thus contradicting your entire post, wherein you lionize what "apologetics" supposedly does.

No falsifiable claims


Check.


So what you're saying is that the LDS Church makes no claims of fact. Let's explore that assertion.

According to official LDS doctrine, is the Book of Mormon a historical record of an ancient people? [ ] Yes [ ] No
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Liz,

I think that my OP addressed your questions.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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