Found the truth, what next?

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_KevinSim
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _KevinSim »

Winston wrote:I am married and my wife is very into the church. In the past any time there has been an questions about the church she has maintained that we are not supposed to question the church. I desperately want her to know what I know because I think it will make us both happier. However, I know the church teaches loyalty to the church first and am afraid of the consequences of what will happen when I bring this up to her. Any advice on how I should proceed?

It depends on how committed to the LDS Church your wife is. It sounds, from what you've said, like she's very committed to the Church. In that case, the only way you have any hope at all of helping your wife get anywhere near seeing things the way you do, is to not totally abandon the things that you have in common with her. I could be wrong, but it sounds like she has a pretty firm belief in God, so losing faith in some good being that controls the universe would probably be a very bad idea for you. Branch out. Find something other than the LDS Church that teaches things about a good God that make sense. Let her know that you're not giving up on the idea of a good God; you've just decided that there has to be a better way of perceiving that good God than the way the LDS Church does.

And if you do find a better way of perceiving that God than the way the LDS Church does, please let me know what it is, because I've been looking for such a way for a very long time. That's why I'm still LDS.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _Some Schmo »

I feel for ya, Winston.

I've never been in your situation (I was 17 when I left the church) so I have no experience trying to figure out what to do about a believing wife, but any time I want to influence anyone around me, I try to do it by attraction rather than promotion. Just be yourself, the man she's used to loving, and try to show her really slowly over time that you can leave the church and still be a decent human being (probably better). Kill her with kindness, and drop subtle hints incrementally about where you're at. Scottie's advice was pretty good.

It's all I can really think of to do trying to imagine the place you're in. I hope the best for you and your family, man.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Themis
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _Themis »

KevinSim wrote:It depends on how committed to the LDS Church your wife is. It sounds, from what you've said, like she's very committed to the Church. In that case, the only way you have any hope at all of helping your wife get anywhere near seeing things the way you do, is to not totally abandon the things that you have in common with her. I could be wrong, but it sounds like she has a pretty firm belief in God, so losing faith in some good being that controls the universe would probably be a very bad idea for you. Branch out. Find something other than the LDS Church that teaches things about a good God that make sense. Let her know that you're not giving up on the idea of a good God; you've just decided that there has to be a better way of perceiving that good God than the way the LDS Church does.

And if you do find a better way of perceiving that God than the way the LDS Church does, please let me know what it is, because I've been looking for such a way for a very long time. That's why I'm still LDS.


I think Scottie's advice is the best. He has had a long time to learn and digest this information. His wife has not, and letting her know what he feels is most likely going to go badly. It would be better for her to have time to learn and digest the same information in a non-threatening manner, instead of freaking out that your husband is no longer a believer. She may never stop believing , but will be in a much better position to understand where her husband is coming from when he may eventually tell her.
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_Wisdom Seeker
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _Wisdom Seeker »

stemelbow wrote:I don't wish your situation on anyone. I don't know your wife, but I realize it must be difficult. Also, I'm a believing TBM so I'm not sure I have anything to offer. Just wanted to express my own concern. I'm sure its difficult. Good luck. I would say pray, but ya know.


YahooBot wrote:Don't be a flippin' flamin' coward and hypocrite by being one thing to your ward and a different anonymous person here. Be consistent and above-board, not a groveling worm afraid of his wife and shadow.

Like many or most here, I might add.


Comparing these two responses I would have to say:
I know there are still some Stemelbow type members who attend the LDS church, but I know plenty more YahooBot types in the church.
_selek
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _selek »

Willy Law wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:Don't be a flippin' flamin' coward and hypocrite


Told ya


It took a whole two hours for Willy's prophesy to come true, which is far superior to any Mormon "prophet's" ability to predict anything! Shame on you, Yahoo Bot, but I should not have expected much better from you...

In any case, welcome to the board, Winston.

Many here can offer advice and this board can be a good place even if to just vent a bit.
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_jon
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _jon »

stemelbow wrote:
However, I know the church teaches loyalty to the church first and am afraid of the consequences of what will happen when I bring this up to her. Any advice on how I should proceed?



I don't wish your situation on anyone. I don't know your wife, but I realize it must be difficult. Also, I'm a believing TBM so I'm not sure I have anything to offer. Just wanted to express my own concern. I'm sure its difficult. Good luck. I would say pray, but ya know.


Stem, I think you do have something to offer to this thread.
From your posts you have been candid enough to share the fact that you 'drop' anything about Mormonism that you personally find to be incorrect or not in line with your own personal beliefs. This means you do tread the line of being an attending Mormon without subscribing to a number of closely held Mormon beliefs. I think discussing how to manage that is exaactly the kind of thing the OP would welcome hearing about.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_stemelbow
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _stemelbow »

jon wrote:Stem, I think you do have something to offer to this thread.
From your posts you have been candid enough to share the fact that you 'drop' anything about Mormonism that you personally find to be incorrect or not in line with your own personal beliefs.


Yep. I say "why not?" I mean I don't see the church as God Himself. I also accept the notion that the Church in the past years have made errors, some pretty big errors, as it is often directed by men sans inspiration. God gives when He sees fit, in my estimation.

This means you do tread the line of being an attending Mormon without subscribing to a number of closely held Mormon beliefs. I think discussing how to manage that is exaactly the kind of thing the OP would welcome hearing about.


This is a very gracious post--the likes of which I haven't seen around these parts for quite a while. thanks Jon. I'll re-respond to Winston and allow people to comment on my take.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Scottie
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _Scottie »

Something else you might be able to do...

Perhaps tell her that you've had some conversation with a guy at work. He told you this stupid lie about Mormonism and that you feel the need to prove him wrong! Ask your wife if she can help you.

"This guy at work said that they found the Book of Abraham papyrus and that it doesn't match the Book of Abraham AT ALL!! I know that's a total lie! Will you help me find some stuff to prove him wrong?"

And when you start searching, really try! Find any tidbit of information that supports your claim. Ignore all the stuff that makes "his" claim true. If your wife is as smart as mine, she will sense immediately if you start gravitating towards the anti stance. Hopefully she will be smart enough to realize just how much cog-dis it takes to believe in Mormonism.
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_stemelbow
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _stemelbow »

Winston,

I'm giving this another go. I don't know if my ideas and position will help at all, but here goes:

Winston wrote:So, like many of you, I found out that I have spent all my life believing a lie. It has a been a long journey and I write all the details, but here is a few things that lead me here:

1. Prop 8. I was living in California when this happened. It was unbelivable how much time and resources was put into this by the church. Everyone in my ward was basically forced to man phone stations and go around knocking doors to promote this. Promotion of this happened in sacrament meeting, sunday school, and priesthood/relief society. It was the least spirtual thing I have ever been a part of. People would bear their testimonies about all the evil things that would happen if this did not pass (Gasp! Their children might know that there are homosexuals in the world. Guess what? They already know.) I did not participate in this, as I believed it was not my role to force anyone to vote a specific way on this and was basically chastized for this. It worked out for some though, the guy that was in charge of the Prop 8 efforts was made bishop right after the prop passed.


I have absolutely no support in my own bones for the prop 8 business. I think the Church is somewhat steering away from the “get heavily involved in a state matter like this” since prop 8. As much as I'm all for gay marriage, I also realize the Church will not change its position--that gay marriage should be fought against politically.

2. All the historical inaccuracies. Too many too list. Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon inconsistencies, Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon, polygamy, blacks banned from the priesthood, controversial and very weird things said by the prophets (men on the moon, Kolob, etc.), the temple and masonary. And it wasn't necessarily the inaccuracies, it was the fact that the church goes to such a great length to hide these and present such a pure history and tell all the members not to bother looking at any non-church sanctioned materials in the research. When I read about all the aweful FLDS pologamy stuff and how they all bore testimony of Joseph Smith, it made me interested in the LDS polygamy history, so I looked into it, found nothing from the official church sources, so I went to other church history (not anti-mormon literature, just legitimate history) and was appalled by what I found. It just snowballed from there. I knew there was stuff out there, but it is amazing how much is there. The fact that the church covers this up just makes it look even worse.

My approach, which is often maligned here, sometimes with good reason, on historical matters is “we simply don’t know as much as we pretend to know”. We really, when it all comes down to it, don’t know the method of translation regarding the Book of Mormon. All we have is a few statements made by people who were witnesses to some extent, but don’t seem to offer much more than their own ideas and assumptions about what Joseph Smith was doing. Book of Abraham? We are even less in the know, I’d say. Other things like blacks and the priesthood I attribute to error by the leaders of the church. I do not in anyway accept the notion that God withheld the priesthood from blacks—and most specifically not because of some curse pronounced upon them. I don’t really buy into polygamy either. I’m not as harshly against it like I am the priesthood issue, but I really don’t get it. I suppose with polygamy if God truly commanded it of Joseph, I’d say “wow…I really didn’t think that it made any sense at all.” But since it doesn’t really affect my daily worship practice I can’t let it worry me too much.


3. Where did all the prophesying go? You look at church history and Joseph Smith was always receiving revelations and prophesying about something, other earlier prophets did the same to some extent. Today, the prophet barely acknolwedges that he is a prophet. And instead of receiving some great revelation and general conference, you get a story of how some guy prayed for a quarter to buy some fried chicken. Yet despite this, we are required to blindly follow the church leaders.


I truly think we, as members of the Church, have to learn to be somewhere else in order for us to receive revelation. I don’t mean physically of course. I’m just plain saying we aren’t quite headed in the direction God needs us to go. Until we realize that, get on track and pursue goodness and love in a more focused way, I don’t think He’ll grace too much with further light and knowledge through revelation. Of course, revelation is often personal and I do believe its given individually. But church-wide? I think its more along the lines of getting the masses motivated and inspired. Its just where we’re at, and probably have been for a long time.

4. Elitism and pride. I think it is funny how the church talks so much about avoiding pride, but pretty much every lesson is about how we are so blessed and better than everyone else in the world because we have the truth and we receive blessings that no one else can. That is all I keep hearing in church.


I detest this attitude in Church. I know it’s a problem. I don’t think it means the Church is wrong but more along the lines that the Church members are wrong. I think its often found in the least suspecting of people. I wouldn’t say it’s a Church problem only problem. Its very cultural as well. But it’s a hard one to address. I try to with my fellow members and I get a lot of unhappy looks and defensive comments. I get the Church’s point in trying to build confidence in the people through its teaching manuals and stuff, but I think there’s a good case made that its also creating an isolated and self-exalted attitude among some members. I can’t say its all-encompassing, but its definitely a problem that needs to be addressed better.

5. Finances. The church expects me every year to declare that I have paid a full tithe when I have no idea what they use it for. There is no financial transperency. And with all the for-profit ventures the church has, it just doesn't seem like something the one and true church should be doing. My wife had to get a job so that we could afford some of the things we needed, however, if we didn't have to pay as much tithing as we did she would not have had to do so.


Personally. My money goes in so many different directions its hard to keep any of it straight. This isn’t a problem at all for me, though. I truly think the best solution for the world’s problems of disunity, hate, war and all that is to infiltrate throughout the world a message of love. There’s no doubt in my mind, when it all comes down to it, and even when I consider all its failings, the best solution overall is the Church, as imperfect as it is.

6. I gave the Mormon promise a last try. I was reading the Book of Mormon and praying, telling God to manifest the truth to me because I was going to make a drastic decision if I did not have a witness of the truth. One day while I was reading the Book of Mormon, I realized that it was poorly written and seemed to be a rip off of the Bible and I wasn't getting anything out of it. That is when I realized I was no longer a believing Mormon anymore. And since then, I have felt like I am receiving so much light and knowldge and feel much better about myself, very similiar to how the church descrbies the feelings one should feel when they are in the church.


I’m personally eager to read the latest work by Brant Gardner. He’s delved into, I understand, the translation possibilities. I’m not quite satisfied with the latest by Skousen on the work being exclusively a tight-control translation. It just doesn’t make sense and one reason I think this is the very thing you mentioned above. This is still something I’ll have to figure out more.

There is a lot more, but I think that is enough. I just need to figure out what to do next. I am married and my wife is very into the church. In the past any time there has been an questions about the church she has maintained that we are not supposed to question the church. I desperately want her to know what I know because I think it will make us both happier. However, I know the church teaches loyalty to the church first and am afraid of the consequences of what will happen when I bring this up to her. Any advice on how I should proceed?

Thanks.


I’m sure you’re in a tough spot and that you’ll be wise about how to proceed. I’m also sure your wife will be defensive and might take this type of news personally depending on how its handled and addressed. I think being honest and upfront is important. But I think being absolute, negative, brash, and aggressive can cause a wedge to be driven. I mean its all on you, though.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_stemelbow
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Re: Found the truth, what next?

Post by _stemelbow »

Scottie wrote:Something else you might be able to do...

Perhaps tell her that you've had some conversation with a guy at work. He told you this stupid lie about Mormonism and that you feel the need to prove him wrong! Ask your wife if she can help you.

"This guy at work said that they found the Book of Abraham papyrus and that it doesn't match the Book of Abraham AT ALL!! I know that's a total lie! Will you help me find some stuff to prove him wrong?"

And when you start searching, really try! Find any tidbit of information that supports your claim. Ignore all the stuff that makes "his" claim true. If your wife is as smart as mine, she will sense immediately if you start gravitating towards the anti stance. Hopefully she will be smart enough to realize just how much cog-dis it takes to believe in Mormonism.


I say don't attempt any disengenuous tricks like Scottie is advocating. I imagine the trick will be exposed at some point and you'll be left looking like a insincere jerk.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
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