Strange things in the Bible

[_brade]

I found this strange passage

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men are in a fight and the wife of the one man, trying to
rescue her husband, grabs the genitals of the man hitting him, you are to cut off her
hand. Show no pity."

So much for standing by your man

How awesome would that be on a missionary placard.

[_harmony]

The laws in Deuteronomy seem pretty weird to us, but they wouldn't really have stood out at all in the time period in which they were written.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the "inspiration by God" group.

Which brings me to Nathan, once again...

[_just me]

This has got to be one of my favorites. It is a Jealousy Curse performed on a woman when her husband becomes jealous thinking that perhaps, just maybe, she might be cheating on him.

What is hilarious is that if she passes the curse test she gets to go back home and live with her turd-headed husband and he is absolved of anything. HAHA!

Oh, and there is no reverse test....No recourse for a woman who feels jealous and suspicious.

Numbers 5:11 ¶And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and abe kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be btaken with the manner;

14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

17 And the priest shall take aholy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to arot, and thy belly to swell;

22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

[_Sethbag]

Mak, so what you're saying is that these portions of the Bible really were written by men from a time significantly more barbaric than ours, and show evidence of containing similar levels of wisdom and insight to those of the peoples around them, demonstrating hyperbole and historical fudging.

In other words, manmade scripture. No God in evidence.

[_maklelan]

Mak, so what you're saying is that these portions of the Bible really were written by men from a time significantly more barbaric than ours, and show evidence of containing similar levels of wisdom and insight to those of the peoples around them, demonstrating hyperbole and historical fudging.

In other words, manmade scripture. No God in evidence.

Of course. I already stated, this was propaganda written well after the putative date of the events. What kind of evidence would you expect to find for God's authorship in a bunch of texts written by humans? If one allows for the possibility of inspiration, what specific literary qualities indicate inspiration? Are those indicators determined by anything other than a priori deduction?

[_ludwigm]

I disagree that Ruth and Boaz slept together at the threshing floor.

7. And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of corn: and she came softly, and uncovered his feet, and laid her down.
...
14. And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor.

They definitely slept together. True, the scripture doesn't use the verb know. (which is more decent than the "f" word)

Having sex with her doesn't make much sense in that context, and there's nothing in the text that demands such a reading

In the text, there is nothing.
Some common sense demand it, maybe. If the secret of Boaz wasn't made of wooden...


by the way "And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor."
Apparently it was known by the - unknown - writer, then by millions of readers.

[_maklelan]

7. And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of corn: and she came softly, and uncovered his feet, and laid her down.
...
14. And she lay at his feet until the morning: and she rose up before one could know another. And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor.

They definitely slept together. True, the scripture doesn't use the verb know. (which is more decent than the "f" word)

The text says she slept at his feet. What leads you to believe this means they had sex?

In the text, there is nothing.
Some common sense demand it, maybe. If the secret of Boaz wasn't made of wooden...

So you're saying that even though the text doesn't indicate they had sex, you have determined that they definitely did because it makes sense to you?

by the way "And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor."
Apparently it was known by the - unknown - writer, then by millions of readers.

Or it's just a story.

[Anonymous]

Mak, so what you're saying is that these portions of the Bible really were written by men from a time significantly more barbaric than ours, and show evidence of containing similar levels of wisdom and insight to those of the peoples around them, demonstrating hyperbole and historical fudging.

In other words, manmade scripture. No God in evidence.

Of course. I already stated, this was propaganda written well after the putative date of the events. What kind of evidence would you expect to find for God's authorship in a bunch of texts written by humans? If one allows for the possibility of inspiration, what specific literary qualities indicate inspiration? Are those indicators determined by anything other than a priori deduction?

I admit that this type of apologetic is very frustrating to me. You're essentially saying "yes, we know that this stuff was made up after the fact, but prove to me that God wouldn't use people making stuff up after the fact to get his Word out".

Ok, I cannot prove that God would not use people making crap up after the fact as his chosen means of getting his Word out. I do believe, however, that it is highly unlikely.

[edit: just removed the wall of text, to shorten my reply]

To believe otherwise would require me to assume a God who cares a lot more about blind faith, overcredulousness, and the willingness to believe things not only without sufficient evidence, but even despite contrary evidence, than he cares for people willing to exercise some critical thinking, educate themselves, consider the evidence, and then come to a rational decision on that basis. And that would be no God I could possibly believe in or worship.

You are more dedicated to the church than I am. You know all of this, yet you choose to bend your considerable mind and intellect to the task of finding ways to know this stuff but believe that the church is true anyway.

That is certainly your right. I could not do it.

[_Drifting]

 1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did atempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

 2 And he said, take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

 3 ¶And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

 4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

 5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, aHere am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

What type of God asks a Father to kill his son as a test?
What kind of Father listens to a God like that?

[_ludwigm]

In the text, there is nothing.
Some common sense demand it, maybe. If the secret of Boaz wasn't made of wooden...

So you're saying that even though the text doesn't indicate they had sex, you have determined that they definitely did because it makes sense to you?

Determine? It is too strong word. I've used maybe.
And yes, it makes sense.

by the way "And he said, Let it not be known that a woman came into the floor."
Apparently it was known by the - unknown - writer, then by millions of readers.

Or it's just a story.

A beautiful one, I can say.

See Asimow's "Lost in Non-Translation" about Ruth (and about the samaritan) in my old comments:
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viewtopic.php?p=232697#p232697