RockSlider wrote:Maybe if your faith was in God, Jesus Christ or at least the Restored Gospel things might go better for you. But your faith seems to be in the Church. It's not really your fault, you've been programmed that way.
I think stem has just been entombed by a rock slide.
It's hard for people like stem to communicate clearly when [Telestial-caliber material deleted].
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
RockSlider wrote:Maybe if your faith was in God, Jesus Christ or at least the Restored Gospel things might go better for you. But your faith seems to be in the Church. It's not really your fault, you've been programmed that way.
sock puppet wrote:I think stem has just been entombed by a rock slide.
Some Schmo wrote:It's hard for people like stem to communicate clearly when his tongue is stuck up DCP's anus.
The amazing this is how large that anus must be to accommodate all those tongues.
It appears to me "the critic" whomever that may include, seems to often be missing the boat in this whole "discussion" thing.
The critics position, as far as I can tell, seems to be "The Church is not true. It simply can't be true. it is proven false on too many fronts to be able to hold the claim that it is true."
The LDS position seems to be, this is true at least for me, "I have faith that the Church is true. This means I hold my faith as the evidence that the Church is closer to being the true Church than any other organization on earth."
I readily acknowledge I can't show you my faith. Faith is personal. in it I see evidence. But I can't show or demonstrate that evidence.
The critic, as it is, as the arguer must demonstrate his or her position. He/she is beholden to the notion that the Church is demonstrably false. in his/her mind it seems obvious to me, that the Church is false because many particular claims made by the Church shows either no evidence in support of it, or show contradicting evidence. The parameters are illy defined in most cases, so we're left quibbling about non-essentials it seems from my believing perspective. "did the Book of Mormon peoples really exist?" who knows? The critic may think he/she knows but it seems like he/she can't define what would be expected. Can't demonstrate that civilizations are all known and accounted for and that those that are known about are really understood. If that's not demonstrated then there's no support for the proposal that the Book of Mormon events never took place.
We're coming from two separate paradigms. The critics is there is no such thing as faith. The believers is my faith supports my position. There's little if any attempt to address each other. There's little if any attempt to understand each other (and that's with the knowledge that many here are former believers).
That's where we're at. Unless we can address the other side with a good idea of where they are coming from and what they wish to discuss, we'll be left quibbling, as it were, about things like is DCP a bad man? Does Pahoran hate Runtu? Are Mormon idiots? Can a Mormon become president?
You once acknowledged that no one would think the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient document just going by the evidence. Do you acknowledge the same for Mormon truth claims in general?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Some Schmo wrote:It's hard for people like stem to communicate clearly when his tongue is stuck up DCP's anus.
The amazing this is how large that anus must be to accommodate all those tongues.
Yeah, it reminds me of puppies jostling for position at their mother's teats, whining when a sibling gains leverage and denies him his precious santorum.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Drifting wrote:Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't do that to you. All I did was show an example from your original post of one of the barriers, which is hypocrisy from LDS posters.
I think your post back to me explicitly shows some other barriers: - Victim/persecution complex - Projecting onto others what you want them to have said - Hostility - Being self absorbed (the critics are not here to prove your faith wrong, they are here to critique the truth claims of the Church against actual facts), it really isn't all about you!
Thanks for the time. I didn't put words in your mouth. I quoted you. You missed the point I made so I had to explain it. You disagree with my explanation it seems. Did you or did you not suggest that the problem is in LDS who prefer hypocrisy.
Please settle down and stop going after me for your misperceptions.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
I have found through personal experience that desire alone provides a vast amount of validation to one's belief system. Wanting something to be true can really cause that seed to grow. You will undoubtedly feel swelling motions in your breast.
I can see where you're going with this. Surely you are of the position that faith is something other than what I perceive it to be, right? Apparently my faith, or that experience which makes up my faith, is nothing more than wanting it to be true to the point of causing the seed to grow and a swelling motion in my bosom, right?
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
RockSlider wrote:Maybe if your faith was in God, Jesus Christ or at least the Restored Gospel things might go better for you. But your faith seems to be in the Church. It's not really your fault, you've been programmed that way.
Nah. my faith is not in the Church. You simply have created a straw man regarding me. Ah well. you guys...
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote:You once acknowledged that no one would think the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient document just going by the evidence. Do you acknowledge the same for Mormon truth claims in general?
Allow me to clarify. I would say it is true of the Book of Mormon if faith is not considered evidence. Outside faith, I agree that it is more reasonable to believe the Book of Mormon is not authentic to what it claims to be, than to believe it is.
That is probably more or less true for many of the claims made by the Church, of course I would have to consider each claim individually. Some are more reasonable than others.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Oh boy here we go again. I start a thread in hopes to generate some discussion. In response I get a number of hostile Stem is bad type of responses. I reply in essence calling out the deflections and whining, and then inevitably we'll be seeing some recurring cries of "persecution complex" and such.
All I can say is, thanks for giving it a serious go, Buffalo.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
stemelbow wrote:Oh boy here we go again. I start a thread in hopes to generate some discussion. In response I get a number of hostile Stem is bad type of responses. I reply in essence calling out the deflections and whining, and then inevitably we'll be seeing some recurring cries of "persecution complex" and such.
Quit your whining.
Ah well, whatever. pep pep
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.