Theists, is MDB a hostile environment?

[Guest]

Theist doesn’t want to comment, because they'll get 4 responses that are aggressive and insulting (comparing God to Santa Claus for example). Nobody wants to post if people are just going to use their posts as a launching pad for a diatrabe about needing evidence and people being deluded.

Really quickly, before i become completely inebriated....What is wrong with comparing god to santa claus? They both promise "rewards" if you are good, they both keep "lists" of who is naughty and nice, they both have helpers/elves/angles to help them with the unachievable things that are attributed to them, santa comes once a year and god/Jesus comes once every couple thousand years (yea, that was a stretch - although children need more immediate rewards...), they both provide rewards to their believers at the end of the year/ end of their lives, they both wear crazy outfits (for those of you who have been through the temple), etc. I think the comparisons are fairly clear to anyone that has been raised as a "christian".

From my perspective, elohim is nothing more than an adult santa claus - how am i wrong?

[_Some Schmo]

by the way, I don't know about anyone else (although obviously, I have my suspicions) but my hostility toward theism has everything to do with my criticisms of theism and nothing to do with my criticisms of theists. I have many believing friends that I will always love. The fact that they believe this stuff doesn't affect my overall opinion of the kinds of people they are or their general intelligence level.

I like and respect many theists on this board (including MsJack, for instance). Others... not so much. I think people can tell which are which by how I talk to them.

I say what I say about theism because I think of it in those terms. It's that simple. There's nothing to be gained by sugar coating it. It's not like I'm going to say things a certain way and theists are going to start popping off the stack, thinking, "Holy crap, I never thought of that before! I need an atheist membership card now!"

We're all just trading thoughts here. It's not like these conversations amount to anything of great significance.

If I mock someone personally, it's because of the kind of person I perceive them to be (at least, at that moment), whether they are theist or not.

But it would be disingenuous of me to pretend to respect theistic thinking on its own merits. I don't. I'm not going to pretend to respect it to save someone's feelings. To me, that's more disrespectful than BSing them ever is. I mean, all we're really talking about here is insulting concepts. It's not my fault if others regard their personal concepts as "sacred" or even worse, "true" (when they can't possibly know that). It doesn't give your concepts a free pass from criticism.

I invite criticism of my ideas. If I can't back them up, then I need to discard them. I expect the same from others.

[_Scottie]

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it.

Epic quote!

[_MrStakhanovite]

So you're in the "tip toe around theists/don't actually say what you think/BS them into thinking you value nonsense simply because they think it" camp. I see.

No, I’m about making Theists more thoughtful and deepen their own understanding of their faith from discussion. Reducing every Theist’s philosophical beliefs about God as mere “nonsense” is arrogant as all hell.

Yes, I do value Theist input, because I’m not some omniscient calculator, I suffer from the same cognitive limitations they do. Just because I’ve come to different conclusions than someone else, doesn’t mean I get to dismiss them as mere nonsense.

The caricatures of God you guys (the majority of the agnostic/atheist posters here) bring up and knock down are a far cry away from what serious believers actually think.

[_MrStakhanovite]

From my perspective, elohim is nothing more than an adult santa claus - how am i wrong?

I’ll assume the role of a Christian here, allow me to explain:

God is the greatest possible being----Santa Claus is a fat man
God is the creator and sustainer of the universe----Santa Claus sustains type two diabetes
God is a transcendent being----Santa Claus is s fat man
God grants his Grace to those who don’t deserve it----Santa Claus grants presents to those who do deserve it.

[_sock puppet]

So you're in the "tip toe around theists/don't actually say what you think/BS them into thinking you value nonsense simply because they think it" camp. I see.

No, I’m about making Theists more thoughtful and deepen their own understanding of their faith from discussion. Reducing every Theist’s philosophical beliefs about God as mere “nonsense” is arrogant as all hell.

Yes, I do value Theist input, because I’m not some omniscient calculator, I suffer from the same cognitive limitations they do. Just because I’ve come to different conclusions than someone else, doesn’t mean I get to dismiss them as mere nonsense.

The caricatures of God you guys (the majority of the agnostic/atheist posters here) bring up and knock down are a far cry away from what serious believers actually think.

But believers are going to have to open up, drop their obtuse shields and give us some reason to do more than just suspect that they are hiding disbelief, in order to be accorded more respect.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Sock,

But believers are going to have to open up, drop their obtuse shields and give us some reason to do more than just suspect that they are hiding disbelief, in order to be accorded more respect.

I was wondering (for the sake of clarity) if you would be willing to elaborate on this a little more? (With emphasis on "obtuse shields" and "in order to be accorded more respect")

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo

[_reuigen verrater]

From my perspective, elohim is nothing more than an adult santa claus - how am i wrong?

I’ll assume the role of a Christian here, allow me to explain:

God is the greatest possible being----Santa Claus is a fat man
God is the creator and sustainer of the universe----Santa Claus sustains type two diabetes
God is a transcendent being----Santa Claus is s fat man
God grants his Grace to those who don’t deserve it----Santa Claus grants presents to those who do deserve it.

Santa Claus is immortal and brings about his purposes with the aid of unearthly mythological servants--- God is immortal and works through unearthly mythological servants

Santa Claus keeps a list of who has been naughty or nice then rewards them accordingly--- so does God.

Children and adults alike leave out cookies and milk and various other items depending on culture and tradition to please Santa
Santa Claus on a specific night--- God's favor was also gained by placing lambs blood outside your door on a certain night.


In order to bring about his purposes Santa Claus relies on magic and miracles----So does God

Santa Claus and God are both bearded men.

[_reuigen verrater]

I have to agree with most of what MsJack stated.

I just want to add that what can really makes this board a hostile environmental is the free rein of users to use personal attacks and insults. I don't think hostile threads are necessarily a bad thing. When I was a TBM I had no problem with hostile threads towards my beliefs so long as the discussion remained productive. I think there's just a lot of threads where the hostility towards theism turns into hostility towards the believer and the discussion turns into a pretty rude portrayal of supposed beliefs. I think certain posters just don't care about holding back and having your faith ripped apart then being insulted on top of that even if it is by only a few can be pretty disparaging.

[_sock puppet]

Hey Sock,

But believers are going to have to open up, drop their obtuse shields and give us some reason to do more than just suspect that they are hiding disbelief, in order to be accorded more respect.

I was wondering (for the sake of clarity) if you would be willing to elaborate on this a little more? (With emphasis on "obtuse shields" and "in order to be accorded more respect")

Thanks and peace,
Ceeboo

It is very common for TBMs to use non-concrete, flowery terminology when they refer to their 'spiritual experience'. Something that obscures and makes pinpointing what they claim an impossibility. For examples, consider these:

"When I did that, the Spirit made a decisive entrance into my study of the [Book of Mormon], and into my life, And the unprecedented spiritual lift and understanding that came to me through that experience has stayed with me ever since."

"a mixture of intellectual analysis, empirical evidence, and what many would call flashes of intuition. (With my fellow Latter-day Saints, I would term these personal revelations.)"

"[I] read the Book of Mormon all the way through, reflect[ed] upon what I was reading, and then pray[ed] about it. I experienced a deep feeling of peace, which remains the ground for my testimony of the Book of Mormon to this very day."

Those are examples, Ceeboo, of what I mean.