What if there was no Book of Abraham?

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_Buffalo
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:
Runtu wrote:6. It is the only known scroll whose anomalous emendations line up exactly with the missing portions.


I don’t know what you mean.



What he means is the only odd/unexpected parts in the scroll are the ones that were missing when Joseph got it and where Joseph drew in what he thought was missing. EVERYTHING that Joseph didn't add himself is very mundane and typical for Egyptian funerary documents.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Drifting
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Drifting »

stemelbow.

I think it's time you faced the facts.

If the evidence that is currently available isn't sufficient to convince you that the Book of Abraham is a big pile of made up bunk then your testimony of its truthfulness is forever safe.

It is also fair to say that you have a remarkable talent for being able to brazenly ignore anything and everything that doesn't fit with what you already think and believe - not just about Mormonism. You can do this with posts and other posters as well. Truly amazing.

Good luck on Kolob.
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_Runtu
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Runtu »

I honestly don't care who believes in the Book of Abraham or not. I do, however, recognize that just about all the Mormon apologetics on this subject are convoluted, poorly thought out, and sometimes even dishonest. Believe what you want, but you shouldn't have to resort to desperate measures to salvage something like that.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_DarkHelmet
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _DarkHelmet »

It does make you wonder, if the Book of Abraham was never canonized, would defenders feel the need to defend it? Or would it be just Joseph's dabbling in translations as a hobby, but nothing to be taken seriously. If it wasn't canonized, would it still be a good translation?
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_just me
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _just me »

DarkHelmet wrote:It does make you wonder, if the Book of Abraham was never canonized, would defenders feel the need to defend it? Or would it be just Joseph's dabbling in translations as a hobby, but nothing to be taken seriously.


Seems to me it would be treated like the JST (Inspired Version of the Bible) that has not been canonized.
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_Buffalo
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Buffalo »

Runtu wrote:What I see is people refusing to acknowledge the consensus of the analysis that has already been done and instead clinging to the hope that some white knight will eventually prove everyone else wrong. I'm open to being wrong about the Book of Abraham, but at this point, there is enough conclusive information to make pretty solid conclusions.



See sig.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Drifting
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Drifting »

just me wrote:
DarkHelmet wrote:It does make you wonder, if the Book of Abraham was never canonized, would defenders feel the need to defend it? Or would it be just Joseph's dabbling in translations as a hobby, but nothing to be taken seriously.


Seems to me it would be treated like the JST (Inspired Version of the Bible) that has not been canonized.


I've always wondered why that hasn't really seen the light of day?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Chap
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Chap »

Buffalo wrote:... the only odd/unexpected parts in the scroll are the ones that were missing when Joseph got it and where Joseph drew in what he thought was missing. EVERYTHING that Joseph didn't add himself is very mundane and typical for Egyptian funerary documents.


That's it.

To take my example of the lion-couch scene: the human head on the priest, and the knife in his hand are both of them added by Joseph Smith.

Image

Image

Take away Smith's 'creative additions', and you just have a perfectly normal (though damaged) ancient Egyptian 'resurrection-of-deceased-assisted-by-Anubis' scene .
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_just me
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _just me »

Drifting wrote:
just me wrote:Seems to me it would be treated like the JST (Inspired Version of the Bible) that has not been canonized.


I've always wondered why that hasn't really seen the light of day?


Because the LDS church based in Utah does not own the rights to it. If someone wants to read it they must purchase a copy from those other guys.
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_Runtu
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Re: What if there was no Book of Abraham?

Post by _Runtu »

Chap wrote:Take away Smith's 'creative additions', and you just have a perfectly normal (though damaged) ancient Egyptian 'resurrection-of-deceased-assisted-by-Anubis' scene .


Yup. But of course, I've been told by an apologist that we're not looking at the Book of Abraham in a sufficiently "nuanced" way.

Imagine, if you will, that you find a worn sheet of paper with mysterious lettering on it. Around the edges, the sheet is torn and is missing some of the text. You don't know what it is, so you take it to your neighbor, who claims to be an expert in restoring and translating documents. He says he'll tell you what it is once he has time to work on it.

He calls you and tells you it's ready. When you get there, you find that the missing portions now have an assortment of different-looking characters than the rest of the text, but your neighbor insists that the new text is what should have been there in the the first place.

You ask him what it means, and he tells you it's a section from Edmund Spenser's "The Faerie Queene" rendered in ancient Chinese. He gives you a line-by-line translation, including the "restored" text. You're quite pleased, and you go your way.

A few days later, you tell a Chinese-speaking friend about your exciting discovery. He asks to see it and says, "Oh, that's not a poem. It's a menu from the restaurant down the street." You go to the Chinese restaurant and find the same menu, only undamaged. Oddly enough, the text on the undamaged menu does not match the "restored" text on your original sheet.

So, you go back to your neighbor and demand an explanation.

Well, of course it looks like a menu, but this is an entirely different kind of document. You have to understand that an English redactor might have used a menu to record "The Faerie Queene," so you have to look at the sheet through an English perspective to see how this might have happened. And besides, we don't know how much of the original document is missing. For all we know, this sheet is part of a larger document wholly unrelated to the menu from the Chineses restaurant. You need to take a more nuanced approach.

But it's obviously a menu! You protest.

I see that you've decided to become a career critic of my abilities. I guess there's no hope for you.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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