Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

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_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

You mean like stop the war? or public education? environmental policy?


(What war?) In any case, a few obvious observations at the outset: Socialism qua socialism, at least in its large scale internationalist manifestations, have never been against war per se (although there have been numbers of radical pacifists within various socialist/communist movements over the last century), but only against certain wars for certain purposes.

Contemporary public education is widely understood to have been in a desperate state of intellectual decline for at least several decades, and critically politicized.

Well you should mention environmental policy, as the environmental policies of the Left are socialism in practice, for most intents and purposes.

Interestingly enough, none of the three points you mention are in any sense the unique province of the Left. Few people want war, and even fewer want a polluted environment. Public educations would probably work well if it were returned to a strictly local prerogative, the federal government taken completely out of public education, and the power of the teacher's unions broken.

Its what the Left believes about these issues, and what it does with its power when in power relative to them, that is the question.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Melchett
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Melchett »

Droopy wrote:1. The gospel's teach the sick should be cared for by the state? References?


If we follow the example of Jesus:

Matthew 4:23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.
Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.

Droopy wrote:2. A cursory study of the Canadian and especially the British health care systems will demonstrate quite clearly that many of the sick, in a socialized system, are not well cared for at all, when they are cared for at all. What we do know thus far, regarding universal health care systems, is that they create the very economic conditions that render anything approaching universal care out of the question.


Being British, I am well aware of how it works. Since 1947. I've had experience first hand, and my friends and family do too. Sure, there are horror stories, but there are many here too. I didn't see anything that created economic conditions that rendered it out of the question.
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

All things socialist likely harmonize with GP if you consider the leftist doctrine composed by Robert Owen, Charles Fourier, or Duc de Saint-Simon.



Interesting. I 'd like to see some extended arguments showing why I should believe this to be the case.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

Melchett wrote:
Droopy wrote:1. The gospel's teach the sick should be cared for by the state? References?


If we follow the example of Jesus:

Matthew 4:23 Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.
Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.


Thanks, I knew you couldn't provide any scriptural references for your claim, but as a matter of philosophical protocol, its always a good idea to go through the motions of asking.

Being British, I am well aware of how it works. Since 1947. I've had experience first hand, and my friends and family do too. Sure, there are horror stories, but there are many here too. I didn't see anything that created economic conditions that rendered it out of the question.


There is far too much empirical, statistical, and observational analysis current to take anecdotal defenses of this kind seriously, Melchett (and I've seen many like them before). The facts and conditions as they exist are available for any who wish to educate themselves upon the matter.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Morley
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Morley »

Melchett wrote:
Droopy wrote:2. A cursory study of the Canadian and especially the British health care systems will demonstrate quite clearly that many of the sick, in a socialized system, are not well cared for at all, when they are cared for at all. What we do know thus far, regarding universal health care systems, is that they create the very economic conditions that render anything approaching universal care out of the question.


Being British, I am well aware of how it works. Since 1947. I've had experience first hand, and my friends and family do too. Sure, there are horror stories, but there are many here too. I didn't see anything that created economic conditions that rendered it out of the question.

My experiences as an American in the Canadian health system echoed this. Not many Canadians would jettison their system in favor of anything like what's implemented in the US.


*Welcome to the board, Melchett.
_Melchett
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Melchett »

Droopy wrote:Thanks, I knew you couldn't provide any scriptural references for your claim, but as a matter of philosophical protocol, its always a good idea to go through the motions of asking.


Jesus said the things you see me do you shall do also, but greater. We as individuals should do that, and as individuals we make the state.

Droopy wrote:There is far too much empirical, statistical, and observational analysis current to take anecdotal defenses of this kind seriously, Melchett (and I've seen many like them before). The facts and conditions as they exist are available for any who wish to educate themselves upon the matter.


Please get it right. I'm offering first hand evidence, not anecdotal. I have seen the conditions and received the treatment. For free. I have witnessed the treatment of my family and friends.

Oh, and thanks Morley for the welcome.
_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Buffalo wrote:
Everything I posted was factual. You are out of tune with the oracles of Jehovah.


#3 has some evidence, but is no where near strong enough. Joseph did practice a form of wife swapping, although I am not sure this is really a leftist ideal. The law of consecration certainly is a form of group ownership. Seems Droopy has already been shown that the LDS church has leftist ideas in it, but I know he will never accept this. It's not like he hasn't brought this up many times already and won't accept the evidnece presented.
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_Themis
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Themis »

Droopy wrote:
2. A cursory study of the Canadian and especially the British health care systems will demonstrate quite clearly that many of the sick, in a socialized system, are not well cared for at all, when they are cared for at all. What we do know thus far, regarding universal health care systems, is that they create the very economic conditions that render anything approaching universal care out of the question.


Possibly if you only go to biased sources that Droopy is famous for. Reality is much different. It's not that the more well do in the US will probably get better service, but on average Canadian and British get better service with less horror stories, and pay much less. They are also healthier then the average American(although that is not exclusively due to providing health care to all). The US is one of the few democratic developed countries that does not have a universal health care. How is it so bad that none of these countries want to get rid of it after having it for so long. It's much the same as the idea of a public education system so that everyone can at least get a basic education.
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_Buffalo
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Buffalo »

Themis wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Everything I posted was factual. You are out of tune with the oracles of Jehovah.


#3 has some evidence, but is no where near strong enough. Joseph did practice a form of wife swapping, although I am not sure this is really a leftist ideal. The law of consecration certainly is a form of group ownership. Seems Droopy has already been shown that the LDS church has leftist ideas in it, but I know he will never accept this. It's not like he hasn't brought this up many times already and won't accept the evidnece presented.


Droopy is an apostate anti-Mormon, seeking to establish a fascist fifth column within the Lord's true church.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Droopy
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Re: Leftism and the Gospel: How Wide the Divide?

Post by _Droopy »

#3 has some evidence, but is no where near strong enough.

Uh huh.

Joseph did practice a form of wife swapping, although I am not sure this is really a leftist ideal.


Joseph did no such thing, and not a shred of documentary evidence exists that he did. Roll the dice again, but this time blow on them and say a few words over them and hope for a high roll.

The law of consecration certainly is a form of group ownership.


You simply have no idea what your talking about here, and don't understand the doctrine involved.

Seems Droopy has already been shown that the LDS church has leftist ideas in it, but I know he will never accept this. It's not like he hasn't brought this up many times already and won't accept the evidnece presented.


This has been debunked and sent to the intellectual dumpster far too many times to engage in quick, drive by sniping such as this. Much better would be some actual critical argument showing why anyone should accept this kind of claim.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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