Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

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_Runtu
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Runtu »

Yahoo Bot wrote:And my particular point is that Ethan Smith's book was just one of many spouting the same theories at the same time. I've pointed to Haywood's book. Which might mean a number of things.

1. Nobody gave it much thought before BH Roberts because it was just one of many.

2. The charges of plagiarism are diluted because Ethan Smith's arguments were just a popular theme at the time. It would be like somebody, one hundred years from now. arguing that a book ripped off from somebody else in particular the theory that more than one gunman killed JFK. In reality, there are hundreds of works that make the same assertion.


That's pretty much my thought, as well. View of the Hebrews, the Book of Mormon, and other local productions reflect the moundbuilder mythology that was prevalent at the time. Saying it was plagiarized is akin to saying that John Le Carre plagiarized from Ian Fleming because both wrote about Cold War espionage.

Welcome back, Bob. Hope you had a good holiday. We'll have to get together next time I'm in LA (maybe next month).
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

Runtu wrote:Welcome back, Bob. Hope you had a good holiday. We'll have to get together next time I'm in LA (maybe next month).


Look me up.

I thoroughly thrashed my new $500 board in Utah's mountains last week. Good light snowfall but too many rocks. Little Could at Snowbird was lots of rocks.
_badseed
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _badseed »

Yahoo Bot wrote:And my particular point is that Ethan Smith's book was just one of many spouting the same theories at the same time. I've pointed to Haywood's book. Which might mean a number of things.

1. Nobody gave it much thought before BH Roberts because it was just one of many.

2. The charges of plagiarism are diluted because Ethan Smith's arguments were just a popular theme at the time. It would be like somebody, one hundred years from now. arguing that a book ripped off from somebody else in particular the theory that more than one gunman killed JFK. In reality, there are hundreds of works that make the same assertion.

Right. Actually Grant Palmer makes this point as well in his MS podcast. The VotH is not seen as some source that was plagiarized but rather one prominent example of the idea common to Joseph Smith's time that Native Americas were descended from a group of Israelite expats. For many this was the only logical way to explain the stuff left by the moundbuilders. Palmer says basically that the idea was "in the air."

Personally I think VotH gets more attention because of Oliver's Cowdery's connection its author Ethan Smith.
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_sock puppet
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _sock puppet »

DarkHelmet wrote:If a prophet cannot commit adultery, even when they do, then is it really plagiarism if a prophet does it?

Good point. It's like acting Attorney General Robert Bork regarding the Saturday Night Massacre episode (10/20/73) of the Watergate sage. Attorney General Elliot Richardson resigned rather than implement Nixon's order to fire special prosecutor Archibald Cox, citing firing Cox would violate Cox's independence as specified in Justice Dept regulations. Deputy A.G. William Ruckelshuas likewise resigned right after Richardson, again rather than firing Cox, for the same reason. Next in line at Justice was Solicitor General Robert Bork. He implemented Nixon's order, firing Cox.

Bork was questioned on and off for months following, why would he be willing to violate Justice regulations ensuring the independence of the special prosecutor? Bork's answer was that since he was the acting A.G. and thus had the authority to change or revoke those very Justice regulations, he was an authority that was not bound by those regulations. It added to the aura and suggestion that the Nixon Administration was acting as if they were above the law.

This is very akin to the notion that anything that prophet does is not a sin, since the pronouncement of what is and is not sin is within the purview of the prophet as god's mouthpiece. The prophet cannot commit sin, because he can pronounce, in the name of elohim/jehovah, that adultery (for example) is not sin. Just as with Bork's answer to the questions from his critics, however, it certainly looks like JSJr was not respecting the 'law'--acting like he was above it.
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _MCB »

Personally I think VotH gets more attention because of Oliver's Cowdery's connection its author Ethan Smith.
Perhaps one ought to take a look at Ethan Smith's other works-- a mish-mash of end times and prophecy. There is a subject material match. Just trying to get to sleep when I had a brain-storm-- you know how it is.
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_Daheshist
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Daheshist »

Ethan Smith did not complain because he was the Angel Moroni. He showed the plates to David Whitmer's mother in the barn in the Whitmer farm near Canadagua. He appeared to David Whitmer, dressed in a brown suit with an old 1812 U.S. Army napsack. Whitmer said, "Where are you going?" He said, "I'm going to Cumorah". Whitmer said, "Can we offer you a ride?" The old man said, "No thank you". After they passed him, Joseph Smith looked at David Whitmer and said, "Do you know who that man was? That was Moroni!"

sr1030 wrote:One problem with this theory is that Ethan Smith, who surely would have read the Book of Mormon and saw the parallels, did not complain or even mention it that I know of. Why would this be?

sr
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Panopticon »

DrW wrote:Panopticon,

Very interesting OP.

The Jockers et al (2008) word print study suggested that Solomon Spaulding was an original author of certain sections of the Book of Mormon text. I do not recall if Ethan Smith was included in the analysis for a word print match and the Abstract to the paper provides no information about Ethan Smith specifically.

Reassessing authorship of the Book of Mormon using delta and nearest shrunken centroid classification*
Matthew L. Jockers
Department of English, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA
Daniela M. Witten
Department of Statistics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA
Craig S. Criddle
+ Author Affiliations

Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA
Correspondence:
Matthew L. Jockers, Department of English, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA. E-mail:
mjockers@stanford.edu

Abstract

Mormon prophet Joseph Smith (1805–44) claimed that more than two-dozen ancient individuals (Nephi, Mormon, Alma, etc.) living from around 2200 BC to 421 AD authored the Book of Mormon (1830), and that he translated their inscriptions into English. Later researchers who analyzed selections from the Book of Mormon concluded that differences between selections supported Smith's claim of multiple authorship and ancient origins. We offer a new approach that employs two classification techniques: ‘delta’ commonly used to determine probable authorship and ‘nearest shrunken centroid’ (NSC), a more generally applicable classifier.

We use both methods to determine, on a chapter-by-chapter basis, the probability that each of seven potential authors wrote or contributed to the Book of Mormon. Five of the seven have known or alleged connections to the Book of Mormon, two do not, and were added as controls based on their thematic, linguistic, and historical similarity to the Book of Mormon. Our results indicate that likely nineteenth century contributors were Solomon Spalding, a writer of historical fantasies; Sidney Rigdon, an eloquent but perhaps unstable preacher; and Oliver Cowdery, a schoolteacher with editing experience. Our findings support the hypothesis that Rigdon was the main architect of the Book of Mormon and are consistent with historical evidence suggesting that he fabricated the book by adding theology to the unpublished writings of Spalding (then deceased). http://llc.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/4/465.abstract


Assuming that Solomon Spaulding claimed copyright for his "Manuscript xx" stories, could the word print findings, as described above, be considered as evidence in an infringement action?

If so, how strong would this evidence be as compared to what you have described for plagiarism from Ethan Smith?

Thanks in advance for your response.



I personally find much of the Spaulding/Rigdon theory compelling. Aside from the word print analysis, which is not a mature science, there is plenty of evidence linking Spaulding, Rigdon, and Smith. In addition, there are parts of the Book of Mormon that read like they were written by a more mature individual who was conversant in the Campbellite rhetoric.

However, I also know the theory has some big holes, such as Manuscript Found being missing, the existence of another book by Spaulding that doesn't have quite so striking of parallels with the Book of Mormon, and the obvious bias of Doctor Hulbut, who put together the affidavits linking Smith with Spaulding.

Brodie didn't buy the Spaulding theory, but she didn't have access to all of the information we have today.

To answer your question, if we discovered Manuscript Found, I have no doubt that there would be a good claim for copyright infringement. However, given the problems, I stick with the theory that Joseph Smith probably wrote it with others, including Cowdery, Rigdon, etc.
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_Panopticon
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Panopticon »

I think there were some problems with the Jockers study methodology that invalidated their findings.


The main complaint with the study was that they didn't use Joseph Smith's own writing. However, the researchers pointed to the fact that we have very little of Joseph Smith's actual writing.

I understand from Craig Criddle that they have redone the analysis with examples of Joseph Smith's writing and that a new paper is forthcoming.
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_Panopticon
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _Panopticon »

sr1030 wrote:One problem with this theory is that Ethan Smith, who surely would have read the Book of Mormon and saw the parallels, did not complain or even mention it that I know of. Why would this be?

sr


Do we know that Ethan Smith read the Book of Mormon? If not, he may not have been aware of the parallels. Even so, some of the main similarities, were not unique to Ethan Smith (which also undercuts a claim for copyright infringement). For example, the idea that Israelites settled America was believed by many people at the time. It was absurd to think that American Indians built the ancient earthworks in the Ohio Valley. Only a white person could have done it (or so the story goes).
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Re: Would Joseph have violated Ethan Smith's copyright?

Post by _MCB »

Daheshist wrote:Ethan Smith did not complain because he was the Angel Moroni. He showed the plates to David Whitmer's mother in the barn in the Whitmer farm near Canadagua. He appeared to David Whitmer, dressed in a brown suit with an old 1812 U.S. Army napsack. Whitmer said, "Where are you going?" He said, "I'm going to Cumorah". Whitmer said, "Can we offer you a ride?" The old man said, "No thank you". After they passed him, Joseph Smith looked at David Whitmer and said, "Do you know who that man was? That was Moroni!"

sr1030 wrote:One problem with this theory is that Ethan Smith, who surely would have read the Book of Mormon and saw the parallels, did not complain or even mention it that I know of. Why would this be?

sr


Could be, could be. Maybe Ethan Smith, more than Sidney Rigdon, was the man behind the screen. He could have been very embarrassed at what Oliver's friends did. Pious fraud and all.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

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