liz3564 wrote:Buffalo, I haven't had a chance to read all of your sources, but I did read the last one concerning the rapes. Apparently, there seems to have been several different versions of that story. Here is the link:
Because it is from google books, it won't allow me to copy/paste the section, so I apologize.
The gist is that although one person recorded the incident of the rape, there was an actual recounting of what happened by an Indian child who witnessed the event. He reported at the trial that the Indians actually shot and killed the girls before they could get to Lee.
Thanks for the further information.
Any MMM history buffs know the answer here? What's the scholarly consensus on rape at MMM?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Runtu wrote:The church definitely goes out of its way to portray apostates as evil degenerates, which really doesn't help strengthen families who are dealing with apostate members. Not long ago, there was a Sunday School lesson about people who leave the church (If I recall correctly, it was when the Joseph Smith manual was being used), and I remember that the class turned into one long attack on people who leave, assigning all the worst motives. I ended up leaving because I knew I was going to say something and cause a scene.
It probably all wasn't all that bad. People are people. However, you should have opened your mouth and said something. You could have said your opinion in a nice way and made an impact. I have no idea just how people will learn or get a different perspective if people keep their mouths shut. You and just me will have done very little to change minds if you both continue to keep the mouth shut.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
just me wrote:Stop disparaging the name of William Law. It took a lot of courage for him to stand up for what he believed what right.
His use of language was meant to rile the mobs against the Mormons. His design was not just against Joseph Smith but against the Mormon leadership. And his use of language was inciteful.
And inciting people through the use of language does not take courage.
Have you read some of the crap Joseph Smith slung? LMAO
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Buffalo wrote: Any MMM history buffs know the answer here? What's the scholarly consensus on rape at MMM?
Even though you may have wished it to happen, it didn't happen.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote:It probably all wasn't all that bad. People are people. However, you should have opened your mouth and said something. You could have said your opinion in a nice way and made an impact. I have no idea just how people will learn or get a different perspective if people keep their mouths shut. You and just me will have done very little to change minds if you both continue to keep the mouth shut.
I did open my mouth. I said we needed to be careful about making judgments about why people leave, as you can't really help people unless you know what they're thinking. That just unleashed more ire. We have this fanatical, gay-hating woman in our ward, and she went off on how no one would leave the church if they weren't following Satan and then lumped apostates in with pedophiles, druggies, and criminals. That's when I left.
It is astonishing how many in my ward and past ward(s) go out of their way to hate GLBTs. The same hate is often passed onto the youth. It must be exhausting for one to spend so much energy hating GLBTs.
by the way, I once expressed that a person often times does not leave over 'sin' and I was treated as if I was tossing human waste at everyone in the room.
Runtu wrote:
why me wrote:It probably all wasn't all that bad. People are people. However, you should have opened your mouth and said something. You could have said your opinion in a nice way and made an impact. I have no idea just how people will learn or get a different perspective if people keep their mouths shut. You and just me will have done very little to change minds if you both continue to keep the mouth shut.
I did open my mouth. I said we needed to be careful about making judgments about why people leave, as you can't really help people unless you know what they're thinking. That just unleashed more ire. We have this fanatical, gay-hating woman in our ward, and she went off on how no one would leave the church if they weren't following Satan and then lumped apostates in with pedophiles, druggies, and criminals. That's when I left.
liz3564 wrote:Buffalo, I haven't had a chance to read all of your sources, but I did read the last one concerning the rapes. Apparently, there seems to have been several different versions of that story. Here is the link:
Because it is from google books, it won't allow me to copy/paste the section, so I apologize.
The gist is that although one person recorded the incident of the rape, there was an actual recounting of what happened by an Indian child who witnessed the event. He reported at the trial that the Indians actually shot and killed the girls before they could get to Lee.
That whole story is highly suspect, liz, and its veracity has been a feature of MMM history since the very beginning. Major Carleton, the army official sent to investigate the massacre, is probably the first source of that "Indian child's" report. He was no child, but a teenager or young man who was Jacob Hamblin's adopted son. Carleton thought his account was a lie and that he himself probably killed the Dunlop sisters.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Runtu wrote:The church definitely goes out of its way to portray apostates as evil degenerates, which really doesn't help strengthen families who are dealing with apostate members. Not long ago, there was a Sunday School lesson about people who leave the church (If I recall correctly, it was when the Joseph Smith manual was being used), and I remember that the class turned into one long attack on people who leave, assigning all the worst motives. I ended up leaving because I knew I was going to say something and cause a scene.
It probably all wasn't all that bad. People are people. However, you should have opened your mouth and said something. You could have said your opinion in a nice way and made an impact. I have no idea just how people will learn or get a different perspective if people keep their mouths shut. You and just me will have done very little to change minds if you both continue to keep the mouth shut.
Next time there's a chastity lesson in church you should open your mouth and explain about light cotton. You will have done very little to change minds if you continue to keep the mouth shut.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.