For Zeez: God and Worship

[_MrStakhanovite]

Now, let me make it clear that I wholeheartedly reject your assertion that we worship only upon the condition of a maximally powerful God. I don't understand at all how this is highly intuitive or even more intuitive than worshipping a less than maximal God. Here's why:

Well, I didn’t say that we worship only on the condition that we worship a maximally powerful God, but actually questioned if it were okay to worship (per my definition) anything less than a maximal God.

Also, the only thing I called intuitive was my definition of worship.

Worship is not a Boolean. Worship is like perception of art. It is deeply personal a subject to individual tastes and circumstances. Heaven forbid we suppose otherwise! Worship does not begin only after we meet a specified threshold. Worship begins in very small ripples and continues on through a spectrum of both color and intensity. We cannot and should not give worship an ultimatum but rather, we should feel it grow in all its shades.

I don’t see how much of this clashes with my working definition, in that it can be deeply personal and done differently from person to person, area to area. As for the building up in waves idea, perhaps my definition should be seen in the light of something like the state of ecstasy, which requires some building up to get to, but requires one to pass some sort of mark, like the transition between something like joy/pleasure to ecstasy.

I have to stop short here, but I’ll be back to comment further…

[_zeezrom]

Ok. I'll be watching for it.

[_Nightlion]

This is a knotty theological point that I have mixed feelings about. I'm not even happy with all of the vocabulary. I think that the tradition in the West would say that the regenerate, even though they are cleansed of original sin, still bear its wounds--of intellect and will,

Interesting to hear what regeneration is from the books of the learned. Big tell is that the removal of original sin is considered its purpose. An even bigger tell is that human will and intellect remain a contaminant. So little is ever said about the real gospel. Mormons eschew its contemplation tenaciously.

LDS do not consider that they are under original sin. Children are whole. When they come of age sin conceives in their hearts and they originate their own sinful nature. That is duly removed when a new heart is wrought in us from God. What has escaped all Christianity since Pentecost, when the Lord himself taught the Jews how to prepare for the promise of the Father and the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, is what we MUST bring to the offering.

What that requires subjects our will and intellect to the primacy of God. LDS know that would be the our acceptable sacrifice where we die to the world and trust Christ to raise us up a new creature. But they have evaded this act as well. Mankind is doomed to overt obstinate willful refusal to come unto Christ as he commands. Hence no kingdom of God upon the earth and precious little worship going up to keep the fires of a just recompense and vengeful wrath from kindling.

Learn on
Learn on

[_zeezrom]

According to classical theism, God doesn't obey justice; he is justice--and free agency. He is only constrained in that he cannot do what is not in his nature, which is not an external constraint.

OK, real quick.

The God of Abraham does obey justice and thence allowed his son to die in order to appease this justice.

The fact that justice happens to be God's left arm is a detail. No matter how we look at it, God is bound.

The cookies are done!

[_zeezrom]

Well, I didn’t say that we worship only on the condition that we worship a maximally powerful God, but actually questioned if it were okay to worship (per my definition) anything less than a maximal God.

I took the liberty to interpret such from your statement: "S is worshiping G if and only if S is expressing maximal deference and reverence towards G." Where maximal deference can only occur between the mortal and the infinite God-being.

I hope you give me a chance to recover from my inefficiencies in solid debate. What do you think of my support for the argument that it is Okay to worship a being less than a maximal God?

Also, the only thing I called intuitive was my definition of worship.

OK, but I interpreted that as a suggestion that worship of a finite God is unintuitive.

As for the building up in waves idea, perhaps my definition should be seen in the light of something like the state of ecstasy, which requires some building up to get to, but requires one to pass some sort of mark, like the transition between something like joy/pleasure to ecstasy.

I'm going off my own experience here. I have never looked at worship with a threshold before but I get what you say. I'm willing to consider it.

[_MrStakhanovite]

It is time for me to address your question, "is it right to worship God if this God is not maximally great?" I would like to immediately answer this with a resounding YES. Yes, it is right to worship a flawed, finite God.

I’m in between classes, but Zeez, if God is flawed and more human than traditional theism presents him (a being that is radically other), how do you justify your worship?

For example, people think it’s okay for young people to have role models, what isn’t okay is when the young person begins to emulate that role model to the point of hero worship, which is viewed negatively today.

[_zeezrom]

I’m in between classes, but Zeez, if God is flawed and more human than traditional theism presents him (a being that is radically other), how do you justify your worship?

For example, people think it’s okay for young people to have role models, what isn’t okay is when the young person begins to emulate that role model to the point of hero worship, which is viewed negatively today.

No Googling on this answer to you, Stak. Straight from my hip.


Do we see evidence in our history of populations being worse off by worshipping a limited deity? I realize many of the folks in Ancient Greece who proclaimed the Golden Rule may not have worshipped the God of Athens but maybe their mothers did...

Anyway, how do I justify my worship?

I don't really know, Stak. I just sort of do it. It feels natural. Most importantly, it feels better than my days of worshipping the Giant Heavenly Father. Maybe it's because I imagine a God who stands up to Heavenly Father despite all odds being against her. This is very profound, to me. Likely, profain to others, depending on POV.

for what it's worth.

[_zeezrom]

Stak,

this is more of what I meant about shooting from the hip:

[_zeezrom]

Bump for Stak.

I realize you are busy in classes and whatnot so take this as nothing more than a gentle reminder in case you forgot. Or maybe you are done discussing? Do you mind if I attempt at a contrast between the hero/celebrity idolizing and limited God worship?

idolizing a football player or pop star is different than worshiping a limited God-idea. It appears you are pushing these two ideas together. Do you mind if I attempt to separate the two?

If you can put God worship on a different plane than pop star idolizing, then I can do the same with my God. The attributes of God are independent of our methods of worship, are they not?

The worshiper of the God of Abraham must defend his questionable ways (recorded in the Bible) or dismiss them as mistakes of men. Either way, the worshiper must take on an ideal that transcends what is written. Why then, cannot I take on an ideal that transcends the mistakes of the immortals?

Thanks for any time you take on this subject, as it means a lot to me.

Zee.

[Guest]

And by the way - want to know why I use Bonnie and Clyde? The position they find themselves in (see pic above) is exactly what I will find myself in when I try going public with my ideas about God. Minus the real guns of course. :)