My First Encounters with Institutional Mormonism

[_DrW]

SteelHead,

Well done.

It was very thoughtful of you to take the time to show that Dr. Southerton had been absolutely forthcoming and upfront about his deplorable treatment at the hands of the one true Church upon the face of the Earth.

[_SteelHead]

Well seeing as how Dr. Southerton has been very active in this thread I probably should have let him respond, but I figure he is currently sleeping.

I add my thanks for his candor and willingness to participate in our discourse.

[_Drifting]

SteelHead,

Well done.

It was very thoughtful of you to take the time to show that Dr. Southerton had been absolutely forthcoming and upfront about his deplorable treatment at the hands of the one true Church upon the face of the Earth.

They had to try and discredit Simon personally because they couldn't discredit his science. I know people laugh when you suggest that maybe the Church bares it's teeth in this kind of way and label it as crazy conspiracy theory. But can anyone think of a good reason for disciplining a member 7 years after they have obviously left?
Has this happened to anyone other than someone instrumental in showing clear factual evidence to the world that discredits completely some of the truth claims of the Church?

[_sock puppet]

All of our children have happily grown to adulthood with no religious beliefs.

Do you think this is a good thing?

I do. I think it is good if a child can be raised to know what is, and not rely on what isn't.

[_sock puppet]

Yes. The majority of Australian families are either non-believers or they never go to church. My kids fit in perfectly. They are interested in religion as a phenomenon but they don't have any specific belief. They have lots of friends, many of whom may have beliefs, but it is not an issue.

Contrary to what many religious people believe, there are lots of good decent folk outside of churches who develop their own principles and live by them. I was initially concerned that they would go off the rails but we have not seen that. Maybe we are lucky.

I presume you know that youth violence is now a very serious problem in Australia, across all states. Good on your children if they stay aloof from this.

I'm curious what you think about DCP's recent contribution to universal immorality (just joking):

John Whitmer left church, but kept testimony of Book of Mormon.

Are you suggesting, Ray, that those Australian youth that are raised god-fearing are not involved in this rash of violence?

[_Fence Sitter]

Simon,

This is from your blog.

... scientists at BYU had tested over 6000 American Indians from Peru and they came up with the same problem of virtually all the female DNA lineages coming from Asia. To date this research has not been published.

Besides the obvious reason would there be any other reasonable explanation why data like this would go unpublished?

[_Doctor Scratch]

Fascinating stuff, Simon. I find it incredible that Tvedtnes would come up with a response so quickly to an obscure bishop on the other side of the world. You must have scared the crap out them. LOL.

If I haven't said it before, I very much admire and respect you for taking a principled stand, despite the attacks that have come your way.

Thanks Runtu. Being on the other side of the world is the key. The attacks, which will likely continue in this thread, happily seem to bounce off. It would have been incredibly difficult to take a stand in Utah. For that reason I take my hat off to folks like the McLays. http://mormonstories.org/?p=2322

Tvedtnes was/is a curious character. Never afraid to speak authoritatively on a wide range of subjects well outside of his expertise. Whenever he spoke about the DNA he seemed to get simple stuff plain wrong time and time again.

This is really interesting---I was struck, though not surprised, that Tvedtnes would affix Scott Woodward's name to that rather angry letter without Woodward's consent. Tvedtnes was always one of the key Mopologists, and it's interesting to trace the interconnections and lineage of this. If I recall correctly, Tvedtnes was first a mentor and then later a confidant to Dan Peterson, for example.

[_Yoda]

SteelHead,

Well done.

It was very thoughtful of you to take the time to show that Dr. Southerton had been absolutely forthcoming and upfront about his deplorable treatment at the hands of the one true Church upon the face of the Earth.

They had to try and discredit Simon personally because they couldn't discredit his science. I know people laugh when you suggest that maybe the Church bares it's teeth in this kind of way and label it as crazy conspiracy theory. But can anyone think of a good reason for disciplining a member 7 years after they have obviously left?
Has this happened to anyone other than someone instrumental in showing clear factual evidence to the world that discredits completely some of the truth claims of the Church?

I think that Quinn's excommunication was done for similar reasons. They had to go after the fact that he was gay. That way, his historical work, which had been well acclaimed and established, could easily be discredited.

[_Joe Geisner]

Simon,

Thank you for sharing this very personal experience. Your courage and honesty should be something Mormon leaders and apologist emulate.

After reading your blog post, I finally came to understand why the apologists tremble when your name is spoken. Great work Simon.

[_Runtu]

Yes. I still haven't mastered the apologetic art of ignoring what is plainly written to see the hidden truths only apologists can divine.

“The first rule of historical criticism in dealing with the Book of Mormon ... is, never oversimplify. For all its simple and straightforward narrative style, this history is packed as few others are with a staggering wealth of detail that completely escapes the casual reader. The whole Book of Mormon is a condensation, and a masterly one; it will take years simply to unravel the thousands of cunning inferences and implications that are wound around its most matter-of-fact statements. Only laziness and vanity lead the student to the early conviction that he has the final answers on what the Book of Mormon contains.”
—Hugh Nibley, 1952

He's a tricky chap your Mormon god, setting all those traps to catch the lazy (>99%) readers.

It's funny that to make things work, you have to have a "nuanced" reading of the scriptures and everything else. You can make just about anything work as long as you're willing to twist your brain into knots.