Ont. God

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_huckelberry
_Emeritus
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Re: Ont. God

Post by _huckelberry »

Chap wrote:If you feed in at one end the intolerably vague concept of something being 'great' (which means what? and how do we tell whether one thing is 'greater' than another?), and turn the handle, then what comes out at the other end is unlikely to be worth anyone's serious attention.

I do not think it need be too vague, I think greater pretty much has to mean the order that determines the order of other things. It does not make much sense to try to figure out whether a cow is greater than a donky or if a rock is greater than a tomato. They do not relate to each other that way. Even if you decide the greatest good is an unknown Anselems observation has the value of pointing out what the word God means,greatest order or greatest good, something which has little to do with flying spagetti monsters or similar characters sometimes mentioned in Gods stead.

Tarski has a point, simply as an argument , the "ont god" is significantly unknown. Yet if we live in the resulting order how can we claim it is completely unknown?
_mikwut
_Emeritus
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Re: Ont. God

Post by _mikwut »

Hello Tarski,

Do you have an independent reason to think that our anthropocentric notions of greater and better are objective?


No (not entirely), but if your concession for the sake of argument is taken seriously then yes. If you for the sake of argument concede the ontological argument is valid you have given reason to accept a correlation of our anthropocentric thoughts and reality. I am not alone in that conclusion here is Bertrand Russell:

The real question is: Is there anything we can think of which, by the mere fact that we can think of it, is shown to exist outside our thought? Every philosopher would like to say yes, because a philosopher's job is to find out things about the world by thinking rather than observing. If yes is the right answer, there is a bridge from pure thought to things; if not, not.


I do not concede that (for example Godel's) ontological argument makes it clear in what sense God is supposed to exist: abstract, platonic, physical etc.


It might not but Anselm's ends in a compassionate God after you have accepted existence. Godel's does create a necessary being, I don't know why that is trivial to you - because as I said that expands the cosmological argument it invokes intent and creator. Not trivial things.

Now Anselm's argument is worse and was not even on my mind. It is just too informal and dependent on imprecise anthropocentric notions to do the heavy lifting needed for a concept such as God.


Guilty of following your OP and thinking of my favorite.

Objections more telling than mine are easy to find. Seek and ye shall find.


Look, you posted the OP, "Consider your favorite ontological proof for the existence of God. Now assume for the sake of argument that it proves that some being "God" exists." Then you listed things we wouldn't know even if that was conceded. I answered you would easily know that "God" is a necessary being, that allows for other knowledge - I gave the cosmological argument for example. Now you tell me objections to the proof itself exist and I should seek them out? - well those were the very objections you shelved for the sake of argument?

A rock and the number Pi exist in two totally different senses. How many senses are there in total? Which one do we end up with?


Being was part of the defintion - concrete existence. Anselms Proslogion II answers these - and it is only valid if existence is proved which you conceded for the sake of argument.

But really now, are you really convinced by this stuff???


Convinced of what stuff? That if the ontological argument can indeed prove a concrete existent being maximally or the greatest to be conceived that we wouldn't be at ground zero as you seem to imply? Yes. Or, of the ontological argument from the very beginning (without your concession)? - not so much. But, I do believe in a verisimilitude and correspondence with personal knowledge and reality.

regards, mikwut
Last edited by Guest on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
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Re: Ont. God

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Tarski wrote:Both and more. But I will admit that this was an off hand comment. It hits the mark in spirit though.


Fair enough. Let me see if I can reform Huck and Mikwut’s idea (my understanding, anyways) into something that might be more defendable.

(p1) <>(Ex)(x is maximally great ^ x exist necessarily).

(p1) tells us that there is something x, such that x is the greatest (unspecified sense) and is a necessarily existing thing.

I think the theist’s next best move is to ask what maximally great properties are there that are compossible with (p1).

Does that at least seem intuitive to you?
_huckelberry
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Re: Ont. God

Post by _huckelberry »

MrStakhanovite wrote:I think the theist’s next best move is to ask what maximally great properties are there that are compossible with (p1).

Does that at least seem intuitive to you?


My immediate reaction to the phrase maximally great properties is to view it as a pitfall. In this context God is not thought of as having maximal properties but as being the source and determinor of properties. Our thinking about the idea of property is normally a more limited thing such as a thing being red instead of blue, heavy instead of light.
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