Jaredite Studies on MDD: For Nightlion & Tobin

[_Drifting]

BY JOVE I THINK I'VE GOT IT!

The term 'barge' and associated descriptions in the Book of Ether are not meant to be taken literally. They are symbolic (figurative) of the journey made on foot across the Beiring land bridge. You know. Like the story about Eve being made from Adams rib isn't supposed to be taken literally.

So on this basis, the pooh, the breathing, the food, etc all become resolved...

[_Kishkumen]

I appreciate DrW's efforts to keep us abreast of all the developments in Jaredite scholarship!

[_Nightlion]

I appreciate DrW's efforts to keep us abreast of all the developments in Jaredite scholarship!

Nothing worse than having an idea and being ignored. But he does tend to cherry pick his rebutts. And dating is problematic. The fact that building cultures emerged in various places in the world near the same time coincides too conveniently with the Bible Story of languages being confounded and the people driven away, each group skilled in the craft of building.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion, using your method of speculation on things not mentioned in the scriptural account we can say that perhaps the Jaredite barges had sails; keels: outboard motors; satellite navigation; full plumbing systems; a cargo hold; a galley; shuffle board competitions and a celebratory drink with the Captain when landfall was spotted on the radar...

This is paradox of the goose and the gander. What's good for one ain't necessarily good for the other. You want to keep me in the box while you run amok speculating wildly as possible. So, um, if the text does not specify that they had any problem with pooh, or toxic fumes, starvation,
suffocation, or rolling and tumbling like a cement mixer, then you CANNOT say that they must have.

So you got to let a geese wander.

[_DrW]

This is paradox of the goose and the gander. What's good for one ain't necessarily good for the other. You want to keep me in the box while you run amok speculating wildly as possible. So, um, if the text does not specify that they had any problem with pooh, or toxic fumes, starvation,
suffocation, or rolling and tumbling like a cement mixer, then you CANNOT say that they must have.

So you got to let a geese wander.

Nightlion,

There is a difference between disciplined, evidence-based speculation and wild unfettered imagination. The difference is one you seem to have a problem recognizing at times.

Over on the MADBoard, for example, one of the posters speculated that at the time of the Jaredites, which was supposedly in the time of Peleg, the continents of the Old World had not yet separated from the continents of the New World. He cites this a a possible reason that the journey took as long as 344 days.

I also keep hearing these theories of their voyage traveling the Atlantic, but the Tower of Babel was during the years of Nimrod, which appears to be several generations before Peleg, which is when the earth was supposed to be divided. If that's indeed the case, there wouldn't be an Atlantic to speak of. And the Pacific would be about twice as big as it is now. This would also likely change (perhaps drastically) the currents from what they are today. Those would lend some credence to a 344 day journey and not having to be going a slow 1-point-something mph to get there in the allotted time.

He apparently didn't think to ask hiself why, if the continents had not yet rifted, why the Jaredites didn't simply walk across dry land to present day Peru, but there you have it.

In any case, since it is well known that the Atlantic Basin was pretty much in its present day configuration by some 30 million years ago, this kind of "theory" is simply useless wild imagination.

In other words, if established science precludes any remote possibility of some theory regarding the Jaredites being correct, then to hold or expound upon such a theory, as this unfortunate individual did, just makes one look silly. Would you not agree?

[_DrW]

Here is another contribution from a faithful Mormon over at MDD. We learn here about the variation in the size of the Earth and the miracles that God chose to use to bring the Jaredites to the New World.

Nightlion might sympathize with this kind of approach.

One theory is that the earth at that point in time was a much larger sphere than it is today. Several early leaders of the Church have suggested that the earth when it was created was a much larger sphere, and large chunks of it have been separated from it at various times such as when God took the people of Enoch to heaven. Their physical environment was also taken with them. From your incredulous point of view this is no doubt another Mormon "fiction" like the the Jaredite story itself, or like the dividing of the earth in the days of Peleg; but assuming that God is a God of miracles, and that He is capable of performing such incredible feats, that is a plausible explanation. I personally adhere to the view that such actions are perfectly within the remit of God's supernatural power to perform.

[_Nightlion]

hmm? Seems like a few MDDers like to thought-mine Nightlion and conflate and expand to their hearts content over there.
If I ever get an attribution there please send me a line. Have they dared broach the Caral, Peru thesis? I suspect many are gnawing at the bit for it. Just waiting for the forgotten moment when I will not get mentioned. They will need buckets for their drool.

[_Drifting]

Nightlion, using your method of speculation on things not mentioned in the scriptural account we can say that perhaps the Jaredite barges had sails; keels: outboard motors; satellite navigation; full plumbing systems; a cargo hold; a galley; shuffle board competitions and a celebratory drink with the Captain when landfall was spotted on the radar...

This is paradox of the goose and the gander. What's good for one ain't necessarily good for the other. You want to keep me in the box while you run amok speculating wildly as possible. So, um, if the text does not specify that they had any problem with pooh, or toxic fumes, starvation,
suffocation, or rolling and tumbling like a cement mixer, then you CANNOT say that they must have.

So you got to let a geese wander.

I've thought about this and you have a point.

However, whilst the critics goose remains in the farmyard, your geese have crossed the field, passed through the gate and are now waddling down the lane in the direction of the next county. ;-)

[_DrW]

Nightlion and Tobin should be happy to hear that some of the folks at MDD have come up with some real world data that is relevant to the Jaredite sea saga.

There are two other blue water sailors who post over on MDD. One of them does not think the Jaredite journey could have been made, and one of them says that he can believe it.

The one who believes that the journey could have been thinks that it may have started in Eastern Asia (e.g. Japan) and ended in Mexico (the Hugh Nibley hypothesis), with possible stops along the west coast of the US. He also believed that the 344 days for a drift crossing would have been too long, thus his theory included stops along the west coast of North America for re-fitting and re-supply.

Turns out that both of us may have been wrong.

Another individual on MDD pointed out the fact that some of the debris from the tsunami that hit Japan on March 11, 2011 has started to arrive on the US west coast, and points out that this debris made it here in just under a year (i.e. close to 344 days). The bulk of the debris from the tsunami that will hit the west coast of the US is expected to do over the next year or so.

Although, I assumed a launch from the east coast of China and not Japan, it appears that a simple calculation based on current drift speed underestimates the time needed for floating material to cross the Pacific from east Asia to the Americas.

While this real world data does make the long (344 day) Pacific crossing time more plausible, it also underscores the problem of keeping the drifting barges together. In the tsunami example, debris that started on the same day in Japan will arrive all along the west coast over a period of more than two years (and much of it will never reach the west coast, ending up instead in the Pacific Ocean "garbage patch" in the middle of the North Pacific gyre).

This new information about measured real world Pacific drift rates is a great example of why papers in science undergo peer review.

It also shows why it is important to consider real world data in making claims or decisions, whether they be scientific or religious.

One difference between science and religion is that, by its very nature, science incorporates, and is influenced by, real world data in near real time (months or years).

On the other hand, religion, if its is affected at all by real world data or experience, often requires decades or even centuries to make the needed changes, and in many cases needed changes are not made at all.

[_DrW]

hmm? Seems like a few MDDers like to thought-mine Nightlion and conflate and expand to their hearts content over there.
If I ever get an attribution there please send me a line. Have they dared broach the Caral, Peru thesis? I suspect many are gnawing at the bit for it. Just waiting for the forgotten moment when I will not get mentioned. They will need buckets for their drool.

Nightlion,

Since it apparently does your psyche great violence to read the MDD board, I will certainly let you know if I happen to see mention of your screen name when I am over there (which under normal circumstances is not that often, believe me.)