Would you attend Church if...

[_Drifting]

...President Monson confessed at Conference that Joseph Smith was indeed a fraud, but he was keeping the Church going.

[_Themis]

You've answered it yourself. You said you would "make it easier for" me by letting me "assume the church is true," and then you said you "understand why the church would be best assuming it is true." Therefore the LDS Church would be best.

I have given you an answer; your suspicion was unfounded.

No you really haven't. Your what alternative question has the assumption that the church is not what it claims so what would be a better alternative. That is the way I read you framing the question, so I asked what the church is doing for long term human welfare that is unique to it.

[_KevinSim]

...President Monson confessed at Conference that Joseph Smith was indeed a fraud, but he was keeping the Church going.

Then I'd really be confused.

At that point I'd probably go to my wife and say, "I know I promised you I'd never leave the LDS Church, but in view of what Monson said, are you still going to hold me to that promise?"

[_Darth J]

I would attend the LDS Church if the Church was true.

Therefore, I do not attend the LDS Church.

However, much like LDST, if going to church involved being fed chicken wings by strippers while I was playing XBox, then I might consider that an acceptable consolation prize for not being true.

ETA: Might.

[_KevinSim]

No you really haven't. Your what alternative question has the assumption that the church is not what it claims so what would be a better alternative. That is the way I read you framing the question, so I asked what the church is doing for long term human welfare that is unique to it.

Themis, did you or did you not say to me, "You can assume the church is true"? I'm more than happy to accept your position, to assume the church is true. Did you or did you not also say, "I understand why the church would be best assuming it is true"? You've allowed me to assume the church is true, so the conclusion is that the LDS Church would indeed be best.

If you'd like to take those statements back, and say you didn't really mean them, that's fine, but I've got to actually read you posting those words.

[_Themis]

If you'd like to take those statements back, and say you didn't really mean them, that's fine, but I've got to actually read you posting those words.

So another words you want to continue to dodge the question about what makes the church unique in providing for long term welfare of the human race out side of it's truth claims about itself. I think you know this is the real issue here and want to avoid it.

[_KevinSim]

I would attend the LDS Church if the Church was true.

Therefore, I do not attend the LDS Church.

You know, people talk all the time about the LDS Church being true, or about it not being true. What does that mean? What would it mean for the LDS Church to be true, and what would it mean for the LDS Church to not be true?

Does true mean every statement any leader in the LDS Church ever utters is true, in some mathematically verifiable sense of the word true? And not true means at least one such leader has made at least one statement that is false, in some mathematically verifiable sense of the word false?

I see arguments in that direction as completely unproductive. For me the question is not how we apply mathematics to natural language; the question is, does God want us to be part of the LDS Church? Has God chosen to teach us about Her/His will via the organization we call the LDS Church?

[_KevinSim]

So another words you want to continue to dodge the question about what makes the church unique in providing for long term welfare of the human race out side of it's truth claims about itself. I think you know this is the real issue here and want to avoid it.

Not at all. All I'm saying is that you yourself made statements whose logical conclusion necessitated that the LDS Church is better at promoting the long term welfare of humanity than any other organization. If you really meant what you said, then, logically speaking, the LDS Church must be better. As soon as you admit that, and admit that you didn't really mean what you said, then I'd be perfectly happy to move on to the issue you want to talk about.

[_Chap]

I would attend the LDS Church if the Church was true.

Therefore, I do not attend the LDS Church.

You know, people talk all the time about the LDS Church being true, or about it not being true. What does that mean? What would it mean for the LDS Church to be true, and what would it mean for the LDS Church to not be true?

Does true mean every statement any leader in the LDS Church ever utters is true, in some mathematically verifiable sense of the word true? And not true means at least one such leader has made at least one statement that is false, in some mathematically verifiable sense of the word false?

I see arguments in that direction as completely unproductive. For me the question is not how we apply mathematics to natural language; the question is, does God want us to be part of the LDS Church? Has God chosen to teach us about Her/His will via the organization we call the LDS Church?

Well, one minimum implication of the claim that the church is true, in the sense that this claim is made by members of the CoJCoLDS might appear to be that no major aspect of what the church habitually teaches is untrue.

Here are two examples of major aspects of what the CoJCoLDS habitually teaches that seem to me to be obviously untrue:

1. A colony of Jews came to the Americas around 600 BC, and their descendants became, for a while, a great Christian civilization. The Book of Mormon tells their history.

2. The Book of Abraham is an authentic ancient scripture.

[_Themis]

So another words you want to continue to dodge the question about what makes the church unique in providing for long term welfare of the human race out side of it's truth claims about itself. I think you know this is the real issue here and want to avoid it.

Not at all. All I'm saying is that you yourself made statements whose logical conclusion necessitated that the LDS Church is better at promoting the long term welfare of humanity than any other organization. If you really meant what you said, then, logically speaking, the LDS Church must be better. As soon as you admit that, and admit that you didn't really mean what you said, then I'd be perfectly happy to move on to the issue you want to talk about.

If you would be perfectly happy with moving on to the issue then I don't see why you haven't already. I already said if the church truth claims are true then they would be better then other groups. Your question of what alternative is better assumes the church's claims are not true since the question would be pointless to assume they are true. I will ask you one more time if you can list what is unique about the LDS that provides for long term welfare of humanity?