My Testimony.

[_Cylon]

Okay, Ray. Good to know where you're coming from. Although I, too, am a bit confused as to why you don't plan to become a member in light of your testimony. I understand if that's personal information that you don't want to share, but if you don't I think it will continue to be an impediment to people on this board understanding you. Of course, it's your call if you think that's important, and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't give it too much weight.

[_Tobin]

Ray should do what he feels God wants him to do. Stick to your guns Ray and go with what you know to be true and eventually it will lead you to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. It is when we turn and attack God and the gospel that we are in serious peril.

[Guest]

Hi Ray.

I ran into a mission buddy once at Benihana's a few years back. During our conversation I confessed to my friend that I was no longer a believer in Mormonism. At the time (and currently today) my mission buddy slept with many women, drank alcohol, smoked, did drugs and acted completely contrary to everything Mormonism taught.

My buddy ordered a round of tequilas, put the shot to his lips, bore a quick testimony that the church was true (for my sake I suppose), and downed the shot with glazed eyes (he had been drinking already).

Actions are the only proof to me. Words much less so. What did it mean to me then that a person confesses truth of something, but doesn't incorporate that truth into his/her life?

Does anybody here doubt the "truth" of gravity? Does anyone here jump off cliffs to their deaths because they "believe" the truth, but cannot live it?

If you don't live it, you do not believe it. If you live it, you don't even need to talk about it because your actions prove your beliefs.

At least that is the way I look at it.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Ray should do what he feels God wants him to do. Stick to your guns Ray and go with what you know to be true and eventually it will lead you to God and the Kingdom of Heaven. It is when we turn and attack God and the gospel that we are in serious peril.

Ray. Definitely don't listen to this guy. He's a heretic. Like. A straight up heretic.

* gathering a stake and some twigs for the fire *

- VRDRC

[Guest]

Let me reaffirm my testimony here, on Mormon Discussions, once and for all to read.

This sounds a lot like what David Whitmer said late in life -- he still had a very strong testimony of the Restored Gospel and the Book of Mormon, but believed that Joseph was a fallen prophet, and with him, the LDS Church. As for me, I have a lot of doubts concerning the current LDS Church "institution," but the Book of Mormon remains a strong pillar of my faith (the Book of Abraham and other "translations" do not hold the same place in my heart). I pretty much write for a living, and I remain in awe of the Book of Mormon and how it came to be. I know there are many evidences to suggest the Book of Mormon is not of ancient origins (I have not decided one way or the other), but there is something about it (when I read it) that tells me the book is more than just Spalding's or Rigdon's or even Joseph's attempt to pen a novel. I don't know if anyone would call this a "testimony," but it's how I view the Book of Mormon, for better or worse.

This matches up pretty well with where I am at. The Book of Mormon is in my opinion the strongest single piece of evidence that the church has to prove that Joseph Smith was a prophet. There are several passages in the Book of Mormon that I still find elegant and inspiring (e.g., "Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have joy"). In this sense, I agree with Elder Holland's frequently cited 2009 GC talk:

If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived; and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit

I do not believe that the Book of Mormon is a true historical account of an actual group that left Jerusalem around 600 BC, but I will continue to consider evidence to the contrary (and sorry Don, I don't consider textual analysis to be very convincing). That being said, I cannot fully explain its origins. However, I cannot fully explain the origins of the Quran either, but that does not mean I am going to convert to Islam any time soon. This is what Elder Holland is missing: just because I cannot explain the origins of the Book of Mormon does not mean that I have to believe that the church is true (i.e., that what is now known as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" is the one true church of Jesus Christ on the earth today, lead by a prophet chosen by Him that reveals His will to the world). To believe that, there are all sorts of issues that one has to "[crawl] over or under or around," such as polygamy or the Book of Abraham. Also, I have studied the succession crisis quite a bit, and I believe that the evidence is thin at best that Joseph Smith actually intended Bigham Young and the Twelve to lead the church when he died. There are no contemporary sources for the famous "transfiguration" of BY into Joseph Smith that we all learned about in Church (the first source for that is 13 years after the speech was given). All we do know, in retrospect, is that Brigham Young was a much more compelling and effective leader than all of the other contenders.

So Ray, while I can relate somewhat to your testimony of the Book of Mormon, I don't agree that this necessarily means that we must believe that the modern day church is in fact the kingdom of God on earth.

[_Fence Sitter]

So Ray, while I can relate somewhat to your testimony of the Book of Mormon, I don't agree that this necessarily means that we must believe that the modern day church is in fact the kingdom of God on earth.

Which then raises the question of why would God go to all that trouble to produce the Book of Mormon just to have apostasy take over again?

[_DarkHelmet]

I want it to be known that I believe the Book of Mormon to be a revelation given by God to us today, and that those individuals and nations who heed its teachings will prosper, while those who fight against it will diminish.

Wow. I've never heard of any Mormon who believes as strongly as you, with the exception of the ones who know it "with every fiber of their being." I'm impressed.

by the way, the Book of Mormon was printed 182 years ago. Plenty of time for people and nations to heed it's teachings. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that those who heed it's teachings will prosper, and those who fight against it will diminish? Most people either don't care about the Book of Mormon, or they think it's an obvious fraud. Lots of prosperous people think it's a fraud. I don't think there is any correlation to a person's attitude toward the Book of Mormon and their prosperity. But I could be wrong. As for nations, the US has quickly prospered from a former British colony to the most powerful country in the history of the world in a little over 200 years. They did it while persecuting Mormons, driving them from town to town, murdering their founder, and generally mocking them and the Book of Mormon. How is that possible? The most prosperous countries today reject the Mormon missionaries at a much higher rate than the less prosperous countries. So again, it seems your theory that Book of Mormon belief being tied to prosperity is flawed.

[_Tobin]

So Ray, while I can relate somewhat to your testimony of the Book of Mormon, I don't agree that this necessarily means that we must believe that the LDS church is in fact the kingdom of God on earth.

The modern day LDS Church isn't the kingdom of God on Earth and never has been. I'm a Mormon and I would certainly not tell anyone that the LDS Church is the kingdom of God or even close. The only point to the Book of Mormon (whether you believe in its divine/historical origins or not) is to get you to seek and speak with God. After that, do whatever God tells you to do.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So Ray, while I can relate somewhat to your testimony of the Book of Mormon, I don't agree that this necessarily means that we must believe that the LDS church is in fact the kingdom of God on earth.

The modern day LDS Church isn't the kingdom of God on Earth and never has been. I'm a Mormon and I would certainly not tell anyone that the LDS Church is the kingdom of God or even close. The only point to the Book of Mormon (whether you believe in its divine/historical origins or not) is to get you to seek and speak with God. After that, do whatever God tells you to do.

Tobin...

Hush darling, don't you cry
Hush darling, don't you cry
Cause they're never gonna reach you, never gonna reach you

Hush darling, don't you cry
Hush darling, don't you cry
Cause they're never gonna reach you, never gonna reach you

In the morning I come down
In the morning I break down
But you're never gonna get away
Gonna get away

I know I'm running baby
but I need you now
Said I know we're going crazy
but I need you now
I need you now
To fight somehow

I know we're running baby
but I need you now
I know we're going crazy
but I need you now
I need you now
To fight somehow

There's a beauty in the waking night
There's a memory waking up
But it's never gonna reach you
never gonna reach you

In the morning I come down
In the morning I break down
But you're never gonna get away
Gonna get away

Hand touches your body now
Lips touch as you're falling down
Run for the last train
One of them will get you home

I know we're going crazy,
but I need you now
I know we're running baby
but I need you now
Need you now
To fight somehow

I know we're going crazy
but I need you now
I know we're running baby
but I need you now
I need you now
To fight somehow

But I need you now

But I need you now

Tonight

Tonight

- VRDRC

[_Darth J]

The modern day LDS Church isn't the kingdom of God on Earth and never has been. I'm a Mormon and I don't believe that. The only point to the Book of Mormon (whether you believe in its divine/historical origins or not) is to get you to seek and speak with God. After that, do whatever God tells you to do.

And yet those who leave the modern LDS Church will "have to make an account for themselves and why they turned their back on the Lord." viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24758&p=611129&view=show#p611129

And the papyri had nothing to do with the Book of Abraham, but the facsimiles do, but the facsimiles were from the papyri, but Joseph Smith was a "nincompoop" who made things up and didn't know what he was doing and mistakenly attributed the things he made up to God, but he was a true prophet, but........

Quite an interesting game of theological musical chairs you've got going on there.