NYC Mormon Stories Conference

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_hans castorp
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Re: NYC Mormon Stories Conference

Post by _hans castorp »

Jason Bourne wrote:See the link below for the NYC Mormon Stories Conference. Quite a line up. Richard Bushman, Clayton Christensen and Dr Andrew Kimball grandson and biographer of Spencer Kimball.

This is a pretty power packed group. Are these all fringers, NOMers, the type that BC and Droopy love to hate? I just heard Clayton Christensen speak a few weeks ago. Based on his comments he sure does not seem like a person on their way out. How does such an awful apostate like John Dehlin get such a line up pf speakers? I want to go.

http://mormonstories.org/nyc-mormon-sto ... 15th-2012/


Since this is only a short subway ride from the sanatorium. I plan to attend.

hc
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_stemelbow
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _stemelbow »

Simon Southerton wrote:John is giving very mixed messages. Here's his talk (18min) from Sunstone.

http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-why-i-stay/

He knows the Book of Mormon isn't real history but he believes it contains profound moral and spiritual truths. I cannot understand this. What sort of a God uses a fraudulent book to teach his children moral concepts?


If there be a God, that is all He uses. Afterall every single book on the planet has something wrong in it. That God can/could use any old tool to teach people profound moral and spiritual truths, then so be it.

Lookie there. I just stood up for John.
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_Cicero
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Re: NYC Mormon Stories Conference

Post by _Cicero »

Does anyone know why Clayton Christensen is no longer speaking at this event?
_Maxrep
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _Maxrep »

Simon Southerton wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:Well Simon I understand your point. And I guess I might fall into the Sunstoned type. But I figure what the hell. Life is short. If this makes John, me or anyone else happy to do this and it works what do you or anyone else care.


I can understand why John is following this path and it is probably the right one for him (and you JB). If he follows the truth where it leads the destination is obvious but so are the consequences. He'd be a social outcast among his family and friends and community. He is immersed in Mormonism and can't shake it.

Yes, life is short, and for the very same reason I cannot imagine getting Sunstoned. Thankfully, the consequences of following the truth are different for many outside the Zion Curtain, especially those over an ocean. While my siblings and their kids are mostly in the church, essentially all of my friends, colleagues and neighbours are welcoming, non-judgemental, non-Mormon atheists.

I think I need to leave this all behind.


What you have said here, Simon, is exactly why I feel that the encompassing nature of the church community is more a motivational force than doctrine and history and testimony.

If I wanted to guess the likelihood of an individual staying in the church, oddly I wouldn't be too interested in hearing their testimony. What would interest me is the number of active siblings the husband and wife each have. Are the parents of both spouses active? Do they live in an are that has relatively high LDS population? What sort of social groups is the individual involved with that are not comprised of LDS members? Does the individual truly have close non LDS friends?

I think alot of our needs are met by meaningful human relationships. The idea of pulling up social roots and discontinuing church participation is more realistic if a substantial social network outside of Mormonism exists for someone. I believe it is also more difficult to maintain a testimony if a person is able to have relationship needs fulfilled outside of church walls. A testimony is maintained to ensure a position within the group. The testimony itself is not self sustaining, benefits from the church community create the need for maintaining a testimony.
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_sock puppet
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _sock puppet »

Simon Southerton wrote:John is giving very mixed messages. Here's his talk (18min) from Sunstone.

http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-why-i-stay/

He knows the Book of Mormon isn't real history but he believes it contains profound moral and spiritual truths. I cannot understand this. What sort of a God uses a fraudulent book to teach his children moral concepts? Can someone tell me what amazing truths the Book of Mormon contains that cannot be gleaned from the Bible or by having a brief chat with a couple of wise old grandmothers?

He appears to have found his home in the Sunstoned community. Those who know the truth but are smart enough to come up with clever excuses for remaining in the faith.

Simon, I agree. It seems that some have to sift every nugget of Mormon lies out of their souls, one nugget at a time.
_Polygamy-Porter
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _Polygamy-Porter »

Simon Southerton wrote:John is giving very mixed messages. Here's his talk (18min) from Sunstone.

http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-why-i-stay/

He knows the Book of Mormon isn't real history but he believes it contains profound moral and spiritual truths. I cannot understand this. What sort of a God uses a fraudulent book to teach his children moral concepts? Can someone tell me what amazing truths the Book of Mormon contains that cannot be gleaned from the Bible or by having a brief chat with a couple of wise old grandmothers?

He appears to have found his home in the Sunstoned community. Those who know the truth but are smart enough to come up with clever excuses for remaining in the faith.

Simon perhaps he is thinking with the small head.
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_Drifting
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _Drifting »

sock puppet wrote:
Simon Southerton wrote:John is giving very mixed messages. Here's his talk (18min) from Sunstone.

http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-why-i-stay/

He knows the Book of Mormon isn't real history but he believes it contains profound moral and spiritual truths. I cannot understand this. What sort of a God uses a fraudulent book to teach his children moral concepts? Can someone tell me what amazing truths the Book of Mormon contains that cannot be gleaned from the Bible or by having a brief chat with a couple of wise old grandmothers?

He appears to have found his home in the Sunstoned community. Those who know the truth but are smart enough to come up with clever excuses for remaining in the faith.

Simon, I agree. It seems that some have to sift every nugget of Mormon lies out of their souls, one nugget at a time.


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_sethpayne
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _sethpayne »

Simon Southerton wrote:He knows the Book of Mormon isn't real history but he believes it contains profound moral and spiritual truths. I cannot understand this. What sort of a God uses a fraudulent book to teach his children moral concepts? Can someone tell me what amazing truths the Book of Mormon contains that cannot be gleaned from the Bible or by having a brief chat with a couple of wise old grandmothers?

He appears to have found his home in the Sunstoned community. Those who know the truth but are smart enough to come up with clever excuses for remaining in the faith.


Why must we have an "excuse" for staying in the faith? I stay because I like being a member of the Church and I don't need any motivation beyond that. Is that a clever excuse? The bottom line is I just don't care about metaphysics related to Mormon truth claims -- or religious claims of any kind for that matter.

I'm not saying that you hold this view but I have seen some ex-Mormons express zealous denouncements of those who know of all the problems with Church history, the Book of Mormon, etc... but choose to remain members simply because we want to remain members. It's rather ironic. Ex-Mormonism is supposed to be about free thought and freedom of expression, right? Well, some of us like being Mormon and therefore we freely choose to participate in our LDS communities in varying degrees.

What you may consider an "excuse" may simply be a motivation to which you can't personally relate. Frankly, I can't relate to your feelings that you must "recover" from Mormonism and that Mormonism continues to grasp you to this day. I'm not saying your feelings aren't authentic and fully justified -- I am absolutely sure they are -- to you. I can't relate to your experience with Mormonism and you can't relate to mine.

Just like you don't wish to be judged for leaving Mormonism, those who choose to remain LDS don't enjoy being judged either. Both judgements carry an arrogance of "MY way is the correct way" and if an ex-Mormon becomes a zealous EMA (ex-Mormon Athiest/Agnostic) haven't they just traded one zeal for another? There isn't much difference between a zealous TBM and a zealous EMA. Both evangelize and believe their view to be correct.
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _Cicero »

sethpayne wrote:Why must we have an "excuse" for staying in the faith? I stay because I like being a member of the Church and I don't need any motivation beyond that. Is that a clever excuse? The bottom line is I just don't care about metaphysics related to Mormon truth claims -- or religious claims of any kind for that matter.


Seth: if you don't mind sharing, I would be curious to hear if you have always felt this way or if you're feelings on this have evolved substantially over time. I have unsuccesfully tried to get to the same point. To put it bluntly, I find it very hard not to care about metaphysics related to Mormon truth claims when I hear my fellow ward members declaring absolute knowledge of the veracity of such claims on at least a monthly basis. F&T meetings are almost unbearable for me right now.
_sethpayne
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Re: John appears to be Sunstoned

Post by _sethpayne »

Cicero wrote:
sethpayne wrote:
Seth: if you don't mind sharing, I would be curious to hear if you have always felt this way or if you're feelings on this have evolved substantially over time. I have unsuccesfully tried to get to the same point. To put it bluntly, I find it very hard not to care about metaphysics related to Mormon truth claims when I hear my fellow ward members declaring absolute knowledge of the veracity of such claims on at least a monthly basis. F&T meetings are almost unbearable for me right now.


Hi Cicero,

I don't mind sharing one bit.

When I first had my crisis of faith I stayed away from Church activity for about 18 months. I could never really abandon my theism and finally became comfortable with the fact that I *chose* to believe in God even though I couldn't prove it. Sure, I find some philosophical arguments for theism interesting and compelling but they are far from being proof. Likewise, totally naturalistic explanations are very compelling but hardly definitive. Anyway, I choose to believe in God and that's that. However, I have no idea who/what God is or what his/her/its attributes may be.

I've long been familiar with the work of William James and Huston Smith during the 18 month period I spent away from the Church I really dug into theories of truth. I went back and read James' essays on Pragmatism where he expands on the original ideas of Dewey and it was James who demonstrated to me that metaphysics are really only important as they relate to practical or "real-world" outcomes. Thus, I refocused on the real world and what I could truly know through my 5 senses. Pragmatism doesn't dismiss metaphysics but it does, in my view, put metaphysics in the proper context.

I can relate to your annoyance with the musings of true believers -- especially when you know they are repeating common phrases or myths with little or no empirical or historical support. My attitude towards this softened, however, when I visited my parents for Christmas. I relate the story here:

http://www.sethpayne.com/?p=824

Bottom line: the metaphysical views held by family members, friends, and Church members are great if those beliefs *work for them.* I will certainly speak up, like consig, when I think lines have been crossed or certain hurtful dogmas (for example, pretty much anything bcspace says -- Jenn Kamp bc) are expressed but this is rare. Most people are at Church to worship and want to walk away feeling like they have been given a spiritual boost. If a belief in Book of Mormon historicity helps that process along, then great. Conversely, if someone like Simon finds that this belief is untenable then they need to discard it and move on to something that works for them whether it involves metaphysics or not.

The biggest practical thing I can do is focus on what I share in common with my fellow Mormons. I believe in honesty, in the charity shown by Jesus, in the work ethic of the early Mormon pioneers. I alway enjoy the Book of Mormon as literature. It is certainly not the best book I've ready but it is theologically interesting to me.

Anyway, enough rambling....

Seth
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