My First Post (why I'm here and the Gadianton Robbers)

[_Henry McClean]

Good morning Henry and welcome.
You seem to be inventing scenario's to deal with the fact that you have lost faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but still want to believe.

1. Joseph fell ill
2. The leaders today have the keys but don't use them
3. The Church is true locally but maybe not corporately

There is no basis for these three scenario's that you present.
If you believe God exists you need to ask why God has chosen to stand by and allow the three things you suggest as possibilities to explain away why the Church doesn't stack up against what it purports to be.

Let me ask you:
Do you believe that secret handshakes and names will be an entry test before you can be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom?
If you don't then you don't believe in Mormonism.

My position is more complex than what I stated in my first post. Each of those three scenarios could be analyzed more fully. But that's not the reason that I am here. Where you see "no basis," I see plausibility. But like I said, analyzing those things is not the reason I am here. I simply wanted to let you all know where I'm coming from.

To answer your question about secret handshakes and names, I don't know the answer. But I also don't agree with your statement that "[i]f you don't [believe that secret handshakes and names will be an entry test before you can be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom] then you don't believe in Mormonism." One can certainly believe in the explanation of the three kingdoms in D&C 76 without believing that secret handshakes are required for entry into the Celestial.

[_Tim the Enchanter]

Where you see "no basis," I see plausibility.

Do you see probability?

By the way, welcome!

[_Henry McClean]

No. If there is a Secret Combination on the scale you mention, it does not matter to the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo.

My reasons for thinking this is what I call the "Needle in the Haystack Problem."

Say there is a grand secret combination that has infiltrated the government, media, financial sector, and the church. Who are you to them? Why would their conspiratorial cross-hairs ever be fixed on you? What makes you different than your neighbor, they guy across town, everyone in your city, your state, or your country? If you are just a number among hundreds of millions to the Secret Combination, why would the black helicopters ever be circling above your roof? If you are 'average,' why would you ever be a target for their nefariousness? I don't believe you would. For this reason, the average TBM, NOM, exmo, or nevermo has nothing to worry about, even if there is a Secret Combination like you describe (and I don't think there is anyway).

I agree that none of us are likely to "be a target for their nefariousness" in a specific way. They aren't going to send their black helicopters to my house. But if the grand Secret Combination does exist then are they a threat to us in a more general way? Have things like the Patriot Act and Obama's decision to allow Americans to be stripped searched without formal charges taken away our liberty? Has reality TV and the 24 hour news cycle programmed us to think only about a certain set of things? Why did the CIA send 27 agents to interview Jesse Ventura after he, a political outsider, was elected Governor of Minnesota? Ventura's theory is that they wanted to learn as much as they could about his election in order to prevent anything like it from ever happening again. None of that specifically targets me. But how can I be truly free in a society that is so controlled? Maybe it doesn't matter. But if I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, then why does it contain so many warnings about secret combinations? Should we just ignore that part?

[_just me]

But how can I be truly free in a society that is so controlled?

I guess it depends on what you are calling freedom. Controls are necessary for everyone to have the max amount of freedom.

[_Drifting]

My position is more complex than what I stated in my first post. Each of those three scenarios could be analyzed more fully. But that's not the reason that I am here. Where you see "no basis," I see plausibility. But like I said, analyzing those things is not the reason I am here. I simply wanted to let you all know where I'm coming from.

To answer your question about secret handshakes and names, I don't know the answer. But I also don't agree with your statement that "[i]f you don't [believe that secret handshakes and names will be an entry test before you can be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom] then you don't believe in Mormonism." One can certainly believe in the explanation of the three kingdoms in D&C 76 without believing that secret handshakes are required for entry into the Celestial.

Hi Henry, thanks for responding (you'll get used to my flippant style in the end).
It is a core teaching of Mormonism that without the rituals of the Temple you cannot enter the top kingdom. Those rituals include the handshakes etc and if you don't believe in them, then I'm sorry but you really don't believe in Mormonism. In reality you believe in bits of Mormonism.

Is it equally plausible that, instead of the scenarios you put forward as excuses (so it seems to me) for why the Church is not what it should be, it could be a fraud?

[_Tim the Enchanter]

But how can I be truly free in a society that is so controlled?

What are you not free to do? I'm assuming you live in the United States. I do too. Aren't we pretty free here? Who is making you partake in reality TV and the 24 hour news cycle? As pervasive as these things are, I think we are more free than ever to not partake in these things if we don't want to. You can read the Economist, you can read the Atlantic Monthly, and you can read other non-24 hour news cycle publications without even leaving your computer. You can watch videos on unplugthetv.com instead of reality TV. And on and on. What is stopping you from doing these things?

But if I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God, then why does it contain so many warnings about secret combinations? Should we just ignore that part?

I think this is why Bond James Bond asked you if you thought the Book of Mormon was historically accurate. Do you think the Book of Mormon accurately describes the way secret combinations operate in society today?

[_Sethbag]

If someone who believed in secret combinations wrote a work of fiction in which secret combinations played a part, would that constitute reasonable evidence that secret combinations exist?

This is why the question of whether the Book of Mormon is literally true or not is very important. If the Creator of the Entire Universe really did use the Book of Mormon to speak to us, then I guess we need to take the conspiracy theories a little more seriously. If not, then Joseph Smith's writings have as much relationship to the truth as some conspiracy nutter out there on the Internet somewhere.

Henry, you will find that most of us on this board will have little sympathy for many of your arguments. To us, trying to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and revealed true doctrine, while the LDS church is "fallen", or not exercising keys that they really do still hold, looks a lot like trying too hard to hold on to beliefs that deep down you really know aren't true.

Consider that anyone, in any church, who lost faith in that church or belief system, would have to confront a lot of the same feelings as you do, and you'll realize that your situation is hardly unique at all. Every Jehovah's Witness who realized the JWs weren't true has been through it too.

[_Henry McClean]

I was hoping to discuss the issue of secret combinations. Conspiracy theories. Conspiracy facts. Whatever you want to call them. People here seem to be more interested in discussing whether the Church is true or not. I guess I didn't do the OP the right way. Whether you think the Book of Mormon is true or not, 90% of all of the media that you have access to is owned by 6 corporations. Does that matter?

[_just me]

I think it is a problem that 1% of the world's population own most of the wealth.

[_Cylon]

I was hoping to discuss the issue of secret combinations. Conspiracy theories. Conspiracy facts. Whatever you want to call them. People here seem to be more interested in discussing whether the Church is true or not. I guess I didn't do the OP the right way. Whether you think the Book of Mormon is true or not, 90% of all of the media that you have access to is owned by 6 corporations. Does that matter?

Sure it matters, but I don't see that as evidence of a grand conspiracy. I see it as the natural outcome of a capitalistic society with few checks on monopolies and oligopolies. Market power matters, and in many markets, the big players will naturally be able to grow and crowd out the competition unless there is some mechanism in place to prevent them from doing so.