When will apologists finally GET IT?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _Chap »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
KevinSim wrote:It "once was," say, ten years ago? How long has it been since it was a "vibrant, growing organization"? Ten years is just a drop in the bucket, historically speaking. What you see happening this decade doesn't mean the end to the LDS Church's future vibrancy and growth.

And, by the way, my ward is very vibrant. And this last year it's done some impressive growing, which is pretty good considering it's a fairly established Utah ward.


I'd say it hasn't been vibrant since correlation and the uniform budgets took hold of the church, and that's at least 25 years. The growth has certainly stopped, though most of the growth of the past was illusory, as retention rates were and still are miserable.


Pew survey yet again. See HERE for the full report of 2008. It shows a that the proportion of the US population willing to identify itself, when asked to declare a religious affiliation, as "LDS/Mormon" is 1.7%, the same as those who declare themselves 'Jewish' by religion.

The figure has been stable at that level for about ten years. So there is no proportional growth in the number of those who consider themselves Mormon (as opposed to just being listed on church rolls), despite extra-large Mormon families, and huge missionary effort. There are just too many people who, despite all that, are ceasing to consider themselves Mormon.

This is a church that is, overall, going nowhere fast. If family size decreases to more normal levels in the coming generation, it is in for relative decline.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_sansfoy
_Emeritus
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:33 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _sansfoy »

Chap wrote:The figure has been stable at that level for about ten years. So there is no proportional growth in the number of those who consider themselves Mormon (as opposed to just being listed on church rolls), despite extra-large Mormon families, and huge missionary effort. There are just too many people who, despite all that, are ceasing to consider themselves Mormon.


The bolded part is cause for worry. Who joins the church in the U.S. nowadays? It's unlikely to be someone with a college degree or critical thinking skills, whose first inclination would be to go to Google. And who from those big LDS families likely to leave the church? Well, it's people with more education, who are naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in their reasoning skills. Independent minded people.

So what is the church going to be like in thirty years? Won't it largely be the descendents of today's not particularly cautious converts and the less educated, less intellectual offspring of current members? It will be a slow transition, but eventually the core population along the Wasatch front will change and it will become easier and easier for educated people to leave the church without suffering huge social consequences. And then the church is in serious trouble.
Hey listen don't you let 'em get your mind...
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _why me »

Polygamy-Porter wrote:Mormon apologetics continues to help members leave LDS Inc.

Had Scott Gordon kept his snitch mouth shut, MormonThink.com would NOT have received so damn much free press.

Today, Chicago Tribune picked up the story.

LA Times tomorrow?

Not only has his actions hurt LDS Inc by helping to remove current tithe payers and the generations of lost tithes payers, but his actions have undoubtedly help any would be investigator to think twice about joining LDS Inc.

And Dano is still butt hurt over being fired.

The most damage to LDS Inc is from within you fools!

Just keep doing what you all pious egomaniac apologists do.

It makes my job even easier.


Actually, this story is not about scott gordon but about david twede and his attempts to hurt the LDS church. The way this story played out by making it public and about romney. This is why it made headway. Now of course, the SP and the bishop should have seen this coming: that twede would make it about Romney but unfortunately they did not see it coming.

However, since mormonthink did this we can safely say that the site is not promormon but just the opposite. You will know them by their deeds and actions and these actions by making it all about Romney to get some press was a little unfortunate. But the mormonthink people are now very happy about the bad press that the LDS church is getting.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _why me »

sock puppet wrote:It is slowly imploding.


I don't think so. Scott did the right thing. He demonstrated that the site was not favorable to the LDS church. And that the people involved in that site were attempting to cast doubt in member minds.

And the mormonthink people know this also. This is probably why they made this about Romney, which it seems was a lie. And they got the press for putting this spin on it. Now did they mislead the press and the people reading these reports? What say you?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_sansfoy
_Emeritus
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:33 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _sansfoy »

In your signature, you say:

why me wrote:I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. - Joseph Smith


Do you think this is true? If so, how long will it take? Most of the earth's population has never heard of this foundation, and the majority of the ones who have are little affected and dismissive. We've supposedly been in the last days for nearly two hundred years now, and yet the end is not here yet and neither has the church made great strides in converting the world. They're struggling to keep up with the other surviving 19th century American movements, in fact, let alone challenge the great world religions.

Now Pentecostalism (founded ~1910, membership 279 million) might be able to make this kind of boast, but Joseph Smith? Hmm.
Hey listen don't you let 'em get your mind...
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _Chap »

sansfoy wrote:In your signature, you say:

why me wrote:I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. - Joseph Smith


Do you think this is true? If so, how long will it take? Most of the earth's population has never heard of this foundation, and the majority of the ones who have are little affected and dismissive. We've supposedly been in the last days for nearly two hundred years now, and yet the end is not here yet and neither has the church made great strides in converting the world. They're struggling to keep up with the other surviving 19th century American movements, in fact, let alone challenge the great world religions.

Now Pentecostalism (founded ~1910, membership 279 million) might be able to make this kind of boast, but Joseph Smith? Hmm.


Thanks for not quoting whyme's actual text (I have him on ignore). At least the words in the signature are from someone more interesting.

However, as you rightly point out, Mormonism is showing no signs of fulfilling the ambitions of its founder and his early successors. To show how far these ambitions once soared, let us remember this frankly ludicrous document, dated April 6, 1845, which contains the following sentences:


PROCLAMATION

OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF Jesus
Christ, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

To all the Kings of the World;
To the President of the United States of America;
To the Governors of the several States;
And to the Rulers and People of all Nations:


... And now, O ye kings, rulers, and people of the Gentiles: hear ye the word of the Lord; for this commandment is for you. You are not only required to repent and obey the gospel in its fulness, and thus become members or citizens of the kingdom of God, but you are also hereby commanded, in the name of Jesus Christ, to put your silver and your gold, your ships and steam-vessels, your railroad trains and your horses, chariots, camels, mules, and litters, into active use, for the fulfillment of these purposes. For be it known unto you, that the only salvation which remains for the Gentiles, is for them to be identified in the same covenant, and to worship at the same altar with Israel. In short, they must come to the same standard. For, there shall be one Lord, and his name one, and He shall be king over all the earth.

....The courts of Rome, London, Paris, Constantinople, Petersburgh, and all others, will then have to yield the point, and do homage, and all pay tribute to one Great Centre, and to one mighty Sovereign, or, THRONES WILL BE CAST DOWN. AND KINGDOMS WILL CEASE TO BE.

Priests, bishops, and clergy, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Mahomedan, will then have to yield their pretended claims to the priesthood, together with titles, honors, creeds and names; and reverence and obey the true and royal priesthood of the order of Melchisedech, and of Aaron; restored to the rightful heirs, the nobility of Israel; or, the dearth and famine will consume them, and the plague sweep them quickly down to the pit, as in the case of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, who pretended to the priesthood, and rebelled against God's chosen priests and prophets, in the days of Moses.

...



I wonder what would happen today if the church repeated what it said to the 'Mahomedan clergy' in that document?

(Yes of course, the document is not doctrinal, and the apostles who called for it to be published worldwide in the church's name were simply speaking as ignorant bumpkins, not as apostles. So that's OK.)
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_LDS truthseeker
_Emeritus
Posts: 421
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:28 pm

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _LDS truthseeker »

I think maybe we should thank FAIR for all the publicity they have given MT and for all the people that wrote us who had their first exposure to the real Mormon historical problems because of it and were grateful. FAIR has no one to blame but themselves and their self-righteous egos.
_KevinSim
_Emeritus
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:31 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _KevinSim »

sansfoy wrote:And who from those big LDS families likely to leave the church? Well, it's people with more education, who are naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in their reasoning skills. Independent minded people.

Sansfoy, according to this logic I'm a prime candidate for leaving the church. I got a Master's Degree in Computer Science from the University of Washington back in 1994. I'm "naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in" my reasoning skills. I consider myself very independently minded.

Why, then, should someone like me leave the LDS Church?
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_SteelHead
_Emeritus
Posts: 8261
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:40 am

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _SteelHead »

Well Kevin, I also have a masters degree in computer science, and left the church.

Why should someone like me stay?
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_cwald
_Emeritus
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:53 pm

Re: When will apologists finally GET IT?

Post by _cwald »

KevinSim wrote:
sansfoy wrote:And who from those big LDS families likely to leave the church? Well, it's people with more education, who are naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in their reasoning skills. Independent minded people.

Sansfoy, according to this logic I'm a prime candidate for leaving the church. I got a Master's Degree in Computer Science from the University of Washington back in 1994. I'm "naturally inclined to intellectual pursuits and have some confidence in" my reasoning skills. I consider myself very independently minded.

Why, then, should someone like me leave the LDS Church?


Because it makes no reasonable or logical sense at any level.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
Post Reply