Equality wrote:I am not familiar with this. What is the source? I probably read it before and it just never registered, but I don't remember seeing this discussed.
Equality,
There is two references to the child "seeing" or translating the plates. They are in E. D. Howe's Mormonism Unvailed pages 264 and 267. The first from Isaac Hale and the second and more detailed account from Joshua M'Kune who says, "Joseph Smith, Jr. told him that (Smith's) first-born child was to translate the characters, and hieroglyphics, upon the Plates into our language at the age of three years; but this child was not permitted to live to verify the prediction."
I seem to have either added to the account or there is more that I cannot find about the child being able to translate the sealed portion. So at this point, it seems that the child was supposed to translate the plates, with nothing being said about the sealed portion. Sorry for this.
Thanks. I was not familiar with these accounts (I think I read Mormonism Unvailed years ago, but this didn't stick out to me).
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
sock puppet wrote: Granted, this was reported 51 years later. But does the LDS Church have any denials by JSJr or those close to him in June 1828 that he did not do this?
Seems quite congruent with then a year later writing his own scriptural text, and then a year after that starting his own church.
The antimormonism at that time among other religious people were quite strong. I wouldn't trust any account by such people who would have an agenda against Mormons, especially accounts 51 years later.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
sock puppet wrote: Granted, this was reported 51 years later. But does the LDS Church have any denials by JSJr or those close to him in June 1828 that he did not do this?
Seems quite congruent with then a year later writing his own scriptural text, and then a year after that starting his own church.
The antimormonism at that time among other religious people were quite strong. I wouldn't trust any account by such people who would have an agenda against Mormons, especially accounts 51 years later.
But you would trust any account by anyone who has the same agenda as you no matter how many years later...right?
For instance, the record of the First Vision was written many years after it supposedly took place. It also is inconsistent with an account written previously attributed to the same author. Yet you implicitly believe it.
Your quibble is not about 'such people' nor the '51 years later'. It is with anyone who doesn't agree with what you want to believe and you demonstrate a great capacity for blatant, deliberate ignorance in dealing with facts, records and evidence. In fact you could be Donny himself...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Equality wrote:Thanks. I was not familiar with these accounts (I think I read Mormonism Unvailed years ago, but this didn't stick out to me).
There's also more to the story of what hopes were pinned on this child. I'm not on my home computer at the moment, but if you are interested I can expand on this and give you some other sources later this evening.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Equality wrote:Thanks. I was not familiar with these accounts (I think I read Mormonism Unvailed years ago, but this didn't stick out to me).
There's also more to the story of what hopes were pinned on this child. I'm not on my home computer at the moment, but if you are interested I can expand on this and give you some other sources later this evening.
I would love to hear more about it (no rush). I don't remember it being covered in either of Bushman's books on Joseph Smith (though I read Beginnings more than 20 years ago). It's also been a long time since I last read NMKMH. Brodie may have covered it, but I just don't remember. One of the things I love about Mormon history is that even though I am pretty well-versed in it, I am always encountering new things (or maybe I am just forgetting things I once knew as I get older).
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Equality wrote:Thanks. I was not familiar with these accounts (I think I read Mormonism Unvailed years ago, but this didn't stick out to me).
There's also more to the story of what hopes were pinned on this child. I'm not on my home computer at the moment, but if you are interested I can expand on this and give you some other sources later this evening.
I am interested!! Please
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Ok, when I get home tonight I'll try to remember to dig my notes out. It's nothing all that secret, you can find most of it in Quinn and other fairly standard sources (as well as the first hand accounts they are using).
If I forget, remind me. I have a crap load to do tonight, but If I recall correctly, I have this written up in some file on my computer and it should be easy to copy n' paste.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
I have Vintage Books 1995 edition of Brodie. P. 53-54 has the story of the new-born son that died. It was right at the time of the Harris debacle-- the loss of the 116 pages. Nothing said there about great hopes for the child who died.
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
MCB wrote:I have Vintage Books 1995 edition of Brodie. P. 53-54 has the story of the new-born son that died. It was right at the time of the Harris debacle-- the loss of the 116 pages. Nothing said there about great hopes for the child who died.
Might be the sort of thing that turns up in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
