Mitt lost like a Mormon

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Chap wrote:
Bond James Bond wrote:Is it possible Romney's base (primarily older white people) is shrinking? ...


What else did you expect it to do? Cultures change as people die off and different people occupy the social space. America today is not America fifty years ago; change is quickening, and twenty years will see the same amount of change as the preceding half a century.

Sorry old, white, male rather religious people. You've had your turn imagining that the world was made for you. Now it will be someone else's turn for a while.


Rhetorical question by me. :wink:

For the board at general:

According to Pew Romney got less of the Mormon vote (78%) than George Bush (80%).
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Chap »

And while we are at it: no, you can't have your country back. Let someone else have a turn with it. Play nice.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Aristotle Smith
_Emeritus
Posts: 2136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Bond James Bond wrote:Is it possible Romney's base (primarily older white people) is shrinking? Might account for losing 1 million+ votes.


Not really. White people are shrinking as a total percentage of the population, but in overall numbers they are still growing. If anything, there were more of them to go after in 2012 than in 2008. The bottom line is that he should have equalled or surpassed McCain's total count because the white base was still as numerous, though proportionately less. This is why I focused on the raw numbers in the original post, not percentages.
_Aristotle Smith
_Emeritus
Posts: 2136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

son of Ishmael wrote:I don't think that being a Mormon is what cost Mitt the election. Having said that, if he was an Episcopalian, it would have been a lot closer.


This is what I was afraid people were going to conclude I was saying. I'm guessing few, if any, people decided to stay home based on the fact that Mitt was a Mormon. There was no anti-Mormonism at all that I can see in the race. There was some in the primaries, but the Evangelical leaders who were initially disposed to oppose him fell in line with Romney once he was the nominee.

But I do think that Mormonism as a world view affected how Romney approached his campaign, and that's what caused him to lose so many votes from McCain's totals. But, and I can't emphasize this enough, no one said to themselves, "Gee, old Mitt there sure is influenced by his Mormon worldview, I better stay home this time." I seriously doubt an outsider would even be able to pick up on this stuff.

As for being an Episcopalian, yes it would have changed the race, but not because people are more disposed to vote for Episcopalians, but because an Episcopalian would probably approach the race differently. For example, one comparison that is made quite a lot is to the 2004 presidential race. George W. Bush won largely because he did what Mitt did not focus on, getting his base to turn out. Coincidently, George W. Bush was raised Episcopalian.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:I don't think that being a Mormon is what cost Mitt the election. Having said that, if he was an Episcopalian, it would have been a lot closer.


This is what I was afraid people were going to conclude I was saying. I'm guessing few, if any, people decided to stay home based on the fact that Mitt was a Mormon. There was no anti-Mormonism at all that I can see in the race. There was some in the primaries, but the Evangelical leaders who were initially disposed to oppose him fell in line with Romney once he was the nominee.

But I do think that Mormonism as a world view affected how Romney approached his campaign, and that's what caused him to lose so many votes from McCain's totals. But, and I can't emphasize this enough, no one said to themselves, "Gee, old Mitt there sure is influenced by his Mormon worldview, I better stay home this time." I seriously doubt an outsider would even be able to pick up on this stuff.

As for being an Episcopalian, yes it would have changed the race, but not because people are more disposed to vote for Episcopalians, but because an Episcopalian would probably approach the race differently. For example, one comparison that is made quite a lot is to the 2004 presidential race. George W. Bush won largely because he did what Mitt did not focus on, getting his base to turn out. Coincidently, George W. Bush was raised Episcopalian.


I think the Pew numbers are consistent with your analysis. If Romney's religion had been a factor, I would have expected it to show in the numbers for born again/evangelicals. Their percentage of the electorate was unchanged from 2008 to 2012, and a larger percentage voted for Romney than for McCain.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Bond James Bond wrote:Is it possible Romney's base (primarily older white people) is shrinking? Might account for losing 1 million+ votes.


Not really. White people are shrinking as a total percentage of the population, but in overall numbers they are still growing. If anything, there were more of them to go after in 2012 than in 2008. The bottom line is that he should have equalled or surpassed McCain's total count because the white base was still as numerous, though proportionately less. This is why I focused on the raw numbers in the original post, not percentages.


Yeah but are young white people such as myself who are more tolerant going to replace our departing elders in the Republican coalition if the Republican party continues its hard line on immigration, drug policy, gay rights, and women's reproductive choices (among other issues that young people care less strongly about than the older generations)?
Last edited by Guest on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Drifting »

bcspace wrote:
McCain Votes 2008: 59,934,814
Romney Votes 2012: 58,168,806


If I recall correctly, Obama was also down vs. his 2008 total.


Don't you mean 'Mr President'....
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _moksha »

Flip-flopping as a way of life: It's axiomatic now that one of Romney's big problems was that he changes his positions to suit his audience. To some degree, everyone modulates their speech to get a better reaction from their audience. Politicians are masters at this. But, there is a limit to this and if you transgress that limit you lose credibility. I think Mitt went over the limit on this one.


Mitt probably realized there is a time for meat and a time for milk. If only his statements during the TV debates were not so incongruent with the stump speeches during the campaign, then Mitt's usage of the meat and milk times would not seem so essentially dishonest.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _DrW »

Aristotle,

Your OP is well written and carries additional weight coming from one who voted for Mitt Romney. It would make a great post election opinion piece for the press, electronic or otherwise. From the perspective of one with limited access to American TV but good internet access, you have done a much better job of using the data to write your post-mortem analysis than any the of Republican or news media talking heads who have spoken up so far.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Markk
_Emeritus
Posts: 4745
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:04 am

Re: Mitt lost like a Mormon

Post by _Markk »

Aristotle Smith wrote:Warning, long post ahead.

Full disclosure, I voted for Mitt Romney. Now having said that, I think there is something about his loss that has a real parallel with the problems the LDS church is facing with growth and evangelism. Here's the statistic I find the most interesting:

McCain Votes 2008: 59,934,814
Romney Votes 2012: 58,168,806

John McCain, one of the most lackluster Republican candidates in recent memory who was running with a VP candidate who had been crucified on the public stage (rightly or wrongly, I don't care about this for the sake of argument), convinced around 1.8 million MORE people to vote for him than Mitt could muster for his election. This is beyond pathetic for a candidate.

Now, take a look at some comments from cumorah.com, the most honest place on the internet for learning about LDS church growth.

A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005. Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth) and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth)....

The Seventh-Day Adventist Church was organized in 1849 and recently overtook the LDS Church with 13 million members, of whom virtually all are active. In 2004, the LDS Church added an average of 661 converts and 270 children of record each day. Seventh-Day Adventists were adding an average of 3,176 new members each day in 2000 and have experienced continued high growth since that time, adding between 900,000 and 1.2 million members each year. The Assemblies of God are growing at approximately 10 percent per year, or over three times the growth rate of the LDS Church, while the Seventh-Day Adventists report growth two to three times LDS rates at 5.6 to 8 percent per year. There are over 570,000 active Seventh-Day Adventists in Kenya alone. This is more than the official number of Latter-day Saints in all of continental Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, less than 200,000 of who are active....

Rodney Stark and Laurence Iannaccone noted: "Except for the years immediately following the prophetic disappointment of 1975, [Jehovah's] Witness growth has consistently outpaced Mormon growth. In 1954, there were 7.7 Mormons per Witness publisher. By 1994, this had been reduced to 1.9. Given that the Mormons are generally viewed as the world's most successful new religion and had about an 80-year start on the Witnesses, this is an astonishing achievement." It is even more astonishing when we consider that there are far more participating Jehovah's Witnesses than Latter-day Saints, since Jehovah's Witness statistical reports consistently cite attendance rates far above official membership


Some observations of parallels I see:

Overstating Statistics: The LDS church, like Mitt, consistently overstates its own following and growth. Furthermore, the LDS church, like Mitt, appears to truly believe its own statistics. Furthermore, both Mitt and the LDS church appear to try and use bad statistics to try and sell people on their brand, which would then lead to better statistics. In other words, if you can get people to believe that you are growing, people might jump on the bandwagon and actually make it a reality.

Well organized and persistent, but ineffective: Mitt put together a well oiled corporate machine for managing his campaign. He has spent more time trying to get elected than just about any other person in history. He spent 6 straight years of his life campaigning and setting up his support organization. But on election night, he couldn't even muster as many voters as John McCain had.

Likewise, on paper the LDS church has the best organized missionary force, but is far less effective than other groups. The most direct group for comparing Mormons are the JWs. They tend to compete in similar markets and use similar door-to-door proselyting strategies. Mormon missionaries have corporate sponsored preparation time, have a tremendous support team in the form of GA and mission offices, standardized materials, etc. Mormon missionaries are generally seen as clean cut and good kids. On paper the LDS missionary force should be outperforming the JWs, but the statistics show the exact opposite, the JW's are far more effective than are Mormons.

Lots of money, but unable to translated money into members/voters: Mitt is probably the wealthiest candidate in the history of the U.S., and he raised gobs of money. When you combine direct contributions with Super PAC money, Mitt had at least as much money as Obama, perhaps more. But whatever he did with that money, he didn't get much for it. In fact, he got at least 1.8 million less votes than did McCain, who ran an inept campaign.

Likewise the LDS church is probably the wealthiest church per capita in the U.S.. I am guessing at this because they don't release the numbers. But judging by how costly temples, church buildings, and malls are, I'm guessing they have plenty of cash on hand. Certainly much more than Seventh Day Adventists and JW's. But, both of those groups are vastly outperforming Mormons in evangelism.

Likeable on paper, but not well liked in reality: On paper Mitt should have been the a well-liked and admired guy. Great family values, hard working, honest, successful, etc. But as was obvious in the Republican primaries, no one liked the guy. I don't think he ever got over that problem.

Mormons also have this problem, but they don't like to admit it or think about it. Mormons are also hard working with good family values. Mormons generally think that everyone else likes them, but they don't. For a great post on people not liking Mormons, from a Mormon writer, try Rock Waterman's excellent blog post on the subject.

I think this point may be the hardest for Mormons to accept. Even people who have left the church will probably defend their LDS friends and relatives from what they perceive as anti-Mormon bigotry. Mormons try so hard and look so nice that any dislike or distrust of them will be perceived as bigotry. But, even if we stipulate that it's all bigotry (I don't think it is, but let's assume it is for the sake of argument), you still have the problem of people not liking you while trying to convert them to your beliefs at the same time. This doesn't mix well.

Flip-flopping as a way of life: It's axiomatic now that one of Romney's big problems was that he changes his positions to suit his audience. To some degree, everyone modulates their speech to get a better reaction from their audience. Politicians are masters at this. But, there is a limit to this and if you transgress that limit you lose credibility. I think Mitt went over the limit on this one.

I think the average Mormon does this regularly as well. Mormons try and have it both ways on polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, being the one true church, the importance of the Bible, the divinity of Jesus, etc. The discussion will be very different if there are non-LDS present than if it is an in group discussion. While in-group/out-group talk will always be different, I think Mormons cross the line from contextualizing their speech to dishonesty with regularity. And this is just the average TBM, Internet and Liberal Mormons have taken this practice to a whole new level. But the real kings of the flip flop are the GAs, who seem to care not a whit about changing practices and doctrines, with no explanation, which previous generations had seen as absolutely essential to the LDS faith.

In conclusion, I think there are some very real parallels between how Mitt ran his campaign and how the LDS church runs itself, and the results are the same. My guess is that Mitt has internalized his Mormonism and ran his campaign as a good Mormon would. Mormons truly believe that they are running the LDS church just as God would have them do this. And, Mitt was utterly convinced he ran a winning campaign...until it became brutally apparent he didn't. This is why the Romney ticket looked so shell shocked on election night, they really believed they had a winner. Contrast this with the McCain folks who were honest enough to know they had lost and conceded without looking surprised.

I don't think Mitt lost because he was a Mormon, but I do think that his devout Mormonism influenced him to run his campaign that had the same problems the LDS church has, and the results were the same.

Edited, changed "good statistics" to "bad statistics."


I certainly agree that LDS stats are largely inflated...but growing up and living 15 minutes from the Seventh Day Adventist "Provo" (Loma Linda Ca.), I can guarantee you SDA are hardly "virtually all active." That is far from being true. And the SDA church is loaded, they just build hospitals and invest in health care, instead of malls, which is a good thing, they just opened a new Hospital here in Murrieta Ca.

http://www.llumcmurrieta.org/

I hope the stats on the other faiths are closer.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Post Reply