Racer wrote:Wait until the Dept of History manager is in a vulnerable position and then cut off his head. Put on his clothes and approach his secretary. She will think you are her boss. Tell her you need her to fetch xyz journal from the archives. As soon as she delivers the journal, high tail it out of there. You may need to hide out in the wilderness for a while.
It sounds extreme and poorly planned, but I know of somebody who had to do this to get some family records, and it seemed to work out OK.
ROFL
About Joseph Smith.. How do you think his persona was influenced by being the storyteller since childhood? Mastering the art of going pale, changing his voice, and mesmerizing his audience.. How do you think he was influenced by keeping secrets and lying for his wife and the church members for decades?
Rory Zoso wrote:One interesting thing I read, I didn't get to spend much time with it, was the first entry by my forefather. He writes about his village in Scotland being filled with witches, lol. I'm thinking it wasn't difficult for him to believe a story about golden plates being dug up.
Not unusual for that time in scotland. But since you are already mocking the gold plates story, obviously the journal will be delight to you. what if you read about wonderful spiritual experiences in the journal. Would you laugh at that too? Most likely the journal is now in a safe place away from water damage, fire etc. Most likely your father wanted it perserved in a safe place. Can you blame him? What would you do with it...besides read it unbelievingly?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
TAK wrote:What a shame the Church spends hundreds of thousands of dollars pouring over European archives and copying names and birthdates in the name of Elijah but with the same equipment will not make copies of the thousands of pioneer diaries locked away never to see the light of day.
Have you ever tried to make a copy of a 170 year old journal? Probably not. In most cases one must wear gloves to hold it and turn the pages over. It just may fall apart.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Rory Zoso wrote: The only reason I have not requested to have my name removed from the record yet is the hope that they would be more likely to accomadate a member over an ex-mormon. I know that is kind of unethical, but I really don't give a flying F.
by the way, where can I get information on completing that process?
Well, since your dad is still alive, I would think that he would have a say in it. Legally, it is still his. And your attitude about a flying F speaks loudly why your dad doesn't want you to have it. Your chances of getting a donated journal back are slim to slight. There would be too many requests for the returning of a family history momento from people whose ancestors have donated items to the church.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Sorry to hear about your family journal. Wish I had a positive experience about this issue to share with you.
My SIL has been trying on and off for two decades to get copies of journals kept by her great grandparents from the LDS Church. These were not donated by her father, but by a TBM older brother. She claims that he had no right to do this without the permission of the other siblings. At one point, she even retained an attorney to help her. Not sure what the attorney did, but whatever it was, it didn't help.
She is not happy about this, and it has caused a great deal of ill-will in her extended family toward the LDS Church.
They (rightly) claim that the Church encourages the keeping of journals for the benefit of one's posterity, not to be locked away in some Church vault to be seen by no one.
There are now dozens of descendants who are not members of the Church who will never have the chance to see and benefit from this bit their history.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
TAK wrote:What a shame the Church spends hundreds of thousands of dollars pouring over European archives and copying names and birthdates in the name of Elijah but with the same equipment will not make copies of the thousands of pioneer diaries locked away never to see the light of day.
Have you ever tried to make a copy of a 170 year old journal? Probably not. In most cases one must wear gloves to hold it and turn the pages over. It just may fall apart.
Someone who has no experience in archival research might think that, but no. That is exactly what archival workers do. They are trained to be able to make copies of fragile materials so they are not damaged. Manuscripts can also be transcribed. The church history department like any other rare book and manuscript institution has been doing this for years.
TAK: I'm not sure it is fair to say that the church is currently secreting thousands of pioneer diaries and never letting them be seen. There have been times when the archives were more difficult to access and there have been times when individuals associated with the collecting of diaries and journals took it upon themselves to censor them before donating them (Kate B. Carter comes to mind). I don't think that is exactly the case now. I would think it likely that Rory would be able to read the journal on site and request a copy of it. (If it has been recently donated, though, he might have to wait until it had been properly processed as an accession. Here is some information on that procedure: http://sfhcbasc.blogspot.com/2010/09/ar ... ssion.html)
As for being able to get the journal back, I think that will be harder because of legal ramifications. Rory needs to find out about the paperwork his father filled out for the donation (I think the Deed of Gift is the document he needs to see, but others here with more lawyerly experience may know better than I). I am sorry I am not in SLC or I would be able to find out information more quickly. As it is, I have queried friends of mine currently using the church archives for scholarly work who have much more experience with the institution and staff than I do. I will be happy to report back if I learn anything of significance.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
TAK wrote:What a shame the Church spends hundreds of thousands of dollars pouring over European archives and copying names and birthdates in the name of Elijah but with the same equipment will not make copies of the thousands of pioneer diaries locked away never to see the light of day.
Have you ever tried to make a copy of a 170 year old journal? Probably not. In most cases one must wear gloves to hold it and turn the pages over. It just may fall apart.
I don't suppose it occurred to you when you were forming that brilliant argument that these individuals are accustomed to handling 500-year-old documents?
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it. Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010
Racer wrote:Wait until the Dept of History manager is in a vulnerable position and then cut off his head. Put on his clothes and approach his secretary. She will think you are her boss. Tell her you need her to fetch xyz journal from the archives. As soon as she delivers the journal, high tail it out of there. You may need to hide out in the wilderness for a while.
It sounds extreme and poorly planned, but I know of somebody who had to do this to get some family records, and it seemed to work out OK.
I am late in giving props to racer for this satire. (Bring back your Tom Hiddleston avatar, please!)
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
why me wrote: what if you read about wonderful spiritual experiences in the journal. Would you laugh at that too? Most likely the journal is now in a safe place away from water damage, fire etc. Most likely your father wanted it perserved in a safe place. Can you blame him? What would you do with it...besides read it unbelievingly?
What a moronic statement. Do you really think we have to believe exactly as our ancestors did to appreciate their heritage, experiences and beliefs?
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent. Bruce R. McConkie
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.