Post on Mormon Feminist housewives upsets "male allies"

[_son of Ishmael]

2. It’s not about you.
You DO NOT TOUCH a woman without her consent. It doesn’t matter that you recognize the harm done by viewing every encounter as sexualized, you don’t get to be the one to break that down. Do not rub legs, do not let your hands slide down to a woman’s waist during a hug, do not initiate. You follow her lead.


I wish she would elaborate a little more about this. Since I don't normally hug anyone except my wife and daughters, am I suppose to just wait for them to start? And if I am hugging my wife, I am not suppose to let my hands slide down to her waist? Am I supposed to stand by and follow her lead?

[_angsty]

Read what I said in my previous post. I'm not going to write up an enumerated list of every word she wrote that comes across to me as "sit down, shut up, and know your place". If you don't agree with me that's fine. I probably couldn't convince you if I tried, so I won't.

I didn't get "sit down, shut up, and know your place" out of the post, and because you didn't give examples, I'm left to assume that you were referring to "tone" or something nebulous of that sort. Since you said "tone" wasn't your objection, I asked you to give me a concrete example, so that I can understand what you are objecting to. If you can't, or won't explain it to me, then I guess that's the end of it.

[_angsty]

I think there's some serious truth in this.

I'm a straight ally, and if one of my gay friends composed an analogous post about how to be, or how not to be, an effective LGBT ally, I'd ask myself if I was guilty and if the answer was "yes", I'd make some changes, and if the answer was "no", I wouldn't make it about me, because as the post would emphasize, "It's not about [me]".

That's the point, after all. As a heterosexual, I am willing to acknowledge that I might not completely get it. In virtue of my heterosexual privilege, I don't expect to see the problems clearly and I certainly don't have all the solutions. I might very well be more a part of hetero-normative culture than I realize. Clearly there's a legitimate need for intellectual and emotional humility here. But, because I am truly committed to the cause of equality, I am not put off by an opportunity to re-examine my part. Nor am I put off by the realization that I am, in large part, a follower in this cause and I sure as hell wouldn't hide behind objections about "tone".

That some men who identify as feminists might be bothered by the post is not surprising. It is a clear indication of the depth of the problem and an opportunity to understand it more deeply.

I think it's interesting to compare the two situations. If you were sitting around with several of your gay friends and they started talking about the discrimination they'd faced, would you jump into the conversation and try to turn it to what a rough time you'd had as a straight person. My guess is no. But if you step back and take a look at feminist discussion forums, you see this happening all the time -- anytime a woman discusses a negative experience she had with men, men jump into the conversation and try to change the topic to something having to do with men. They derail the conversation into "men have it tough, too" or they deny her experience or they tell her how she should feel or behave. The point is, they often don't listen. I moderate a forum and I see it all the time. When I read a feminism forum, I see it even more.

It's not hard to be a good ally. But the most important step is to ask: "how can I be a good ally?" Instead, what most men who describe themselves as feminists do is decide themselves what feminism should be and how feminists should behave, and then lecture the women on how they should think, feel, and behave -- including the "tone" they should use when they post. When guys talk tough, it's guys talking tough. When women talk tough, they need to change their tone.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Thank you, seriously, for getting it.

[_Res Ipsa]

I think you miss the point, Seth. If you want to be a good ally, ask how to do that, listen to the answer, and give women the credit to know what they need.

Why does being an ally of feminists require me to give them what they tell me they need? Could a person legitimately be an ally merely by opposing gender inequality? Could a male be an "ally" of the feminists on his own terms? If not, why not? Why does the author of the OP require that a man subordinate himself to literally every single woman feminist in order to be a legitimate ally? Does gender inequality justify gender inequality?

But again I ask, what if a man simply opposed gender inequality? Is he legitimately an ally of feminists? Or is his own self-subordination to all women feminists also required?[/quote]

Isn't there lots of excluded middle ground between your two choices?

Let me try an analogy. Not sure if it works, but here goes. Say that I think the golden rule is a good moral principal that I aspire to live by. How do I put that into practice? Is it a matter of assuming that other people would like to be treated in the exact manner that I would like to be treated? So, if it's my wife's birthday and I want her to give me a board game for my birthday, should I give her a boardgame for hers? Even though she loathes boardgames? Or is it that I would like to give her to give me something I like for my birthday, and so I should give her something she likes.

So now, how do I figure out what she likes? Do I try to figure out what she should want? Or do I ask her what she likes and trust that she know more about what she likes than I do. When she tells me the kinds of things that she likes, do I lecture her on why she shouldn't like that, or turn the conversation to what I like? Or do I sit down, shut up, and listen?

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be an ally of feminists. It doesn't make you a bad person. But if you want to be one, isn't the best way to go about it to ask how you can help and then shut up and really listen? Once you truly understand what is wanted in an ally, there is nothing wrong with saying "I can't do that" or "I'm not willing to do that." Then you go and do what you can do or think you should do. What you don't do is go into their forum, not listen to what they are saying, tell them why they are wrong, tell them what they should be feeling, or chide them about their tone. (Not saying you did...)

So, no, I don't think you have to be some kind of puppet taking orders from every feminist on the planet to be an ally. And I don't think being a puppet is what the OP on the other site is demanding. But being an ally is more than just supporting "gender equality."

by the way, I don't consider myself a feminist ally.

[_son of Ishmael]

by the way, I don't consider myself a feminist ally.

After reading the OP, I guess I am not either...

[_Sethbag]

I'm not my wife's birthday ally. I don't see a direct analogy to being an ally of the feminists.

Here's what I see:

Feminist: we're sick and tired of being told our place, how to think, what to say, how to act, etc. by you privileged males! In order to agree with us on this, here's your place, here's how to think, what to say, how to act, etc.

I have a better analogy though. If I go into someone's house, and they ask me to take my shoes off, I do so. I don't take my shoes off in my own house except as dictated by personal comfort, but I respect another person's right to set the customs in their house. I'm willing to see woman-controlled web forums and such in this way, too. But just as I don't get to set the customs for all homes merely by setting the customs for my own home, I don't think any given person, feminist or not, gets to lay claim to the right to set the customs for an entire field of human thought or interaction.

I'll tell you what, though. I have very little interest in being this woman's "ally", in the way she envisions it. Since we don't know each other, I don't imagine she gives a rat's ass whether I'm on her team or not. I wish her good luck in her endeavors.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I got about two microseconds into her post, and closed out the window.

People like that are exhausting. She's a "Feminist Mormon Housewife".

If that doesn't explain it all, then I don't know what could.

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Jesus.

You can't get more awesome than this (luzzlity luzzles):

Angry Activists with Diapers to Change.

- Doc

[_dblagent007]

I wish them luck with that. They have some legitimate beefs, but the tone of the OP is incredibly off-putting. Sounds like they've got crap they want to do, and don't particular welcome any guys around while they're doing it. Ok. Knock yourselves out.

I agree 100%. My takeaway from the post is that they really don't want any male allies unless they the men agree to sit down and shut up. Well, that's fine, but that's not exactly what I would call an ally (more like a silent, mindless follower). Go knock yourselves out. I don't want anything to do with it.

[_dblagent007]

I'm not my wife's birthday ally. I don't see a direct analogy to being an ally of the feminists.

Here's what I see:

Feminist: we're sick and tired of being told our place, how to think, what to say, how to act, etc. by you privileged males! In order to agree with us on this, here's your place, here's how to think, what to say, how to act, etc.

I have a better analogy though. If I go into someone's house, and they ask me to take my shoes off, I do so. I don't take my shoes off in my own house except as dictated by personal comfort, but I respect another person's right to set the customs in their house. I'm willing to see woman-controlled web forums and such in this way, too. But just as I don't get to set the customs for all homes merely by setting the customs for my own home, I don't think any given person, feminist or not, gets to lay claim to the right to set the customs for an entire field of human thought or interaction.

I'll tell you what, though. I have very little interest in being this woman's "ally", in the way she envisions it. Since we don't know each other, I don't imagine she gives a rat's ass whether I'm on her team or not. I wish her good luck in her endeavors.

I absolutely support and believe in gender equality. However, the feminists are so off-putting that I find it extremely difficult to care about their cause. I will treat women equally and teach my children to do the same, but beyond that I just don't really care. They've made it pretty clear that they don't want or need anything from me and that makes it pretty easy for me to just not care at all.