Why do so many people dislike John Dehlin?

[_RockSlider]

My respect for John comes from the fruits of an incredible number of years of work and dedication to Mormon Stories. The wealth of experience and depths of pain that have been captured there. No matter how narcissistic and/or any number of other personality flaws he might exhibit, he has contributed something of great substance and worth to the Mormon community.

I'm giving John a big thumbs up for his recent labeling of nasty arm-chair quarterbacks with nothing but endless hateful personal attacks on his perceived human weaknesses as leaches. Suggesting maybe they should try contributing something of value to the community instead of a constant launch of attacks on one whom has paid his dues.

And even in the wavering, and the throwing of some under the bus it appears John's realization of some of his personality faults and the dangers of these rapidly evolving organizations and some strange behaviors starting to follow them (i.e. rumors of wife swapping, drugs, drinking etc.) that his stop, drop and roll type of unexpected behavior was the admirable thing to do.

It does not seem to be a big leap to assume what we are seeing with a few individuals in the other thread is some pretty serious damage already having been done by those things John put the breaks on.

As noted in this thread, I think we all tire of the topic, and yet the communities interest in seeing how/what the church is going to do in these final chapters is of interest to all of us. It's a shame that the OP trying to follow just that has turned into such a showcase of obvious pain/damage by a very small and specialized group.

[_Spanner]

+1 to Tim's analysis above.

I wish people would stop banding about the term "narcissistic". I think it is uncalled for. JD has a cause to promote, and he does it well. That will inevitably include self promotion as well.

As to accusations of over sharing on Facebook, I joined his public page and don't see any of that. I understand he separated his public from his private page before I joined. Possibly he did this to avoid some of the social faux pas that Racer mentioned.

John has done a lot for many people, and done a lot of work for others. He is an energetic extrovert who attracts followers, but he obviously genuinely cares for people. As Tim said, his attempts to straddle the fence, while helping others chose which side they want to be on appears to have offended some black and white thinkers. His behavior hardly qualifies as narcissistic.

[_Equality]

My respect for John comes from the fruits of an incredible number of years of work and dedication to Mormon Stories. The wealth of experience and depths of pain that have been captured there. No matter how narcissistic and/or any number of other personality flaws he might exhibit, he has contributed something of great substance and worth to the Mormon community.

I'm giving John a big thumbs up for his recent labeling of nasty arm-chair quarterbacks with nothing but endless hateful personal attacks on his perceived human weaknesses as leaches. Suggesting maybe they should try contributing something of value to the community instead of a constant launch of attacks on one whom has paid his dues.

And even in the wavering, and the throwing of some under the bus it appears John's realization of some of his personality faults and the dangers of these rapidly evolving organizations and some strange behaviors starting to follow them (i.e. rumors of wife swapping, drugs, drinking etc.) that his stop, drop and roll type of unexpected behavior was the admirable thing to do.

It does not seem to be a big leap to assume what we are seeing with a few individuals in the other thread is some pretty serious damage already having been done by those things John put the breaks on.

As noted in this thread, I think we all tire of the topic, and yet the communities interest in seeing how/what the church is going to do in these final chapters is of interest to all of us. It's a shame that the OP trying to follow just that has turned into such a showcase of obvious pain/damage by a very small and specialized group.

[_ZelphtheGreat]

Because he is 'a wolf in sheeps clothing'.

He is playing both sides at the same time.

If you ask him something you have no idea if what he says is his belief or what he thinks you want to hear.

He appears to have no convictions or actual beliefs, just a marketing strategy.

[_Mayan Elephant]

I'm giving John a big thumbs up for his recent labeling of nasty arm-chair quarterbacks with nothing but endless hateful personal attacks on his perceived human weaknesses as leaches. Suggesting maybe they should try contributing something of value to the community instead of a constant launch of attacks on one whom has paid his dues.

And even in the wavering, and the throwing of some under the bus it appears John's realization of some of his personality faults and the dangers of these rapidly evolving organizations and some strange behaviors starting to follow them (i.e. rumors of wife swapping, drugs, drinking etc.) that his stop, drop and roll type of unexpected behavior was the admirable thing to do.

It does not seem to be a big leap to assume what we are seeing with a few individuals in the other thread is some pretty serious damage already having been done by those things John put the breaks on.

As noted in this thread, I think we all tire of the topic, and yet the communities interest in seeing how/what the church is going to do in these final chapters is of interest to all of us. It's a shame that the OP trying to follow just that has turned into such a showcase of obvious pain/damage by a very small and specialized group.

i think you meant brakes. but he certainly put a ton of breaks on things too.

rockslider, i always appreciate people like you being willing to stick around when the conversation is not really going your way. you remind me very much of bcspace and water dog and a few others that, while they seem to be hardly worth the time to argue with, their arguments actually do more to prove the counterpoints than anyone else could also say or do.

there is nothing like sycophanticism to prove the presence of sycophanticism. just like there is nothing like myopic tbm nonsense to prove the presence of myopic tbm nonsense.

despite other posters on here making very valid and specific points, you find some way to blame all mormonstories' problems and all these perceptions on a few individuals. per you, this is not mormonstories' fault, it is just the evil doing of a few individuals. in the face of real answers and real facts, this is still the fabrication of a few evildoers. that is a sycophant. your obsession with the feelings and ignorance of the facts reminds me of myself when i would listen to rush limbaugh and believe it and feel personal that any criticism of him was a criticism of me.

i have mentioned this in a few pm's to others too. mormonstories may very well self destruct if he behaves at all like he did thursday, in the real world. but even that is not the real story here. the real story is not about him, one person, that makes podcasts. it is about the sycophants now, and how the Mormon dialogue can expand beyond one insular group of Mormons that believe the dialogue needs to be appropriate for mormonstories' living room or the 11 moderators at NOM. when mormonstories chose to fabricate threats of excommunication at the new york times and everywhere else, he chose to be the face of this expanding dialogue. it looks like more than a few people are calling BS on that prank.

[_Racer]

JD has a cause to promote, and he does it well. That will inevitably include self promotion as well.

If JD has a cause to promote he doesn't know what the hell it is because the cause has shifted back and forth all over the map. You can chalk this up to growing pains, but I chalk it up to indecisiveness. Is he a TBM, NOM, exmo, or a crusader for LGBT/Woman's rights? I am sorry but it's impossible to be all of these. JD needs to pick one and go the distance with it rather than leap frogging all over the place leaving his followers in various groups feeling betrayed and confused. Identifying JD's cause is like nailing Jello to a wall.

This leads me to my second point. Since he doesn't have an identifiable cause, he does not promote it well. I do marketing and pr for a living. We don't launch a product until we can clearly define what it is and who the customer will be.

This leaves us with self promotion which John seems to do ok with. He has managed to get a handful of his sycophants to fund his lifestyle allowing him to quit his job and go to school full time to get his Phd in Psych. His hope seems to be to specialize as a faith crisis counselor and make stacks of cash "helping" Mormons deal with their faith conflicts. He also would probably like to parlay this into a couple of books and speaking engagements that no doubt have more $ tied to them. Good on him. In the end JD's movement is all about helping people and profiting from it. If he can manage to keep his nose clean and stop self sabotaging himself with some of his recent and ill thought out actions and self serving statements, he might actually have a group of Mormons somewhere who he hasn't pissed off that can be his clientele.

[_Mayan Elephant]

JD has a cause to promote, and he does it well. That will inevitably include self promotion as well.

If JD has a cause to promote he doesn't know what the hell it is because the cause has shifted back and forth all over the map. You can chalk this up to growing pains, but I chalk it up to indecisiveness. Is he a TBM, NOM, exmo, or a crusader for LGBT/Woman's rights?

This leaves us with self promotion which John seems to do ok with.

i think, racer, where these two points (lack of identity and self promotion) cross paths is where the sycophants get played the most. when mormonstories came on the scene at nom almost 10 years ago, he would repeatedly attack nom posters and critics by saying that he was the only one really doing anything. the only one using his real name. unlike others, he was trying to make a difference. unlike the anonymous critics, he was trying to infiltrate the church and install unorthodoxy.

when he was faced with concern by his local leaders, he solicited letters from the sycophants to share with his leaders about how they were helped (usually letters about how he helped them STAY in the church.) his promotion, even recently, was an expression that a so-called threat of him was a threat to them. he made his recent correspondence with King a church-wide mandate on all his followers. (remember the blood in the streets threat?) the problem with that is that his problems were not just overblown, they didn't represent anyone because nobody was antagonizing the church like he was doing. and further, he is so inconsistent in his causes he really didn't and doesn't represent anything other than his sycophants and himself in these escapades.

[_Sister Mary Lisa]

If JD has a cause to promote he doesn't know what the hell it is because the cause has shifted back and forth all over the map. You can chalk this up to growing pains, but I chalk it up to indecisiveness. Is he a TBM, NOM, exmo, or a crusader for LGBT/Woman's rights?

This leaves us with self promotion which John seems to do ok with.

...he is so inconsistent in his causes he really didn't and doesn't represent anything other than his sycophants and himself in these escapades.

I believe he represents himself only, as narcissists are wont to do. To me, every single characteristic of a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder fits with what I have seen of him since I knew of him at all. Every single one. So he cultivates sycophants who help him carry out his Narcissistic aim, especially by promoting him, and by keeping his critics at bay and silenced (as much as that is possible). His claims of wanting to help people are all over the map not because he is "indecisive" but because he has discovered that using each "cause" as a tool to gain more sycophants and more fame (and in turn more money) is highly effective. I suspect that as his podcast empire grew, he discovered people will pay for more JD, and that got him going on the track of making money grow as large as he can possibly make it grow, while still trying to look like he's helping everyone else but the actual person he is helping: JD.

[_Aoife]

I definitely don't "hate" or even "dislike" JD, but I am a bit uncomfortable with him.

I really appreciated his "Why People Leave the LDS Church" presentation. My experience leaving the church was so painful and some of the LDS people in my life were very judgmental and not very charitable in their explanations to themselves and each other about my choice. The possibility of being understood by a believing Mormon was validating and gave me hope that my loved ones might evolve a bit.

So, I'm not without gratitude and I certainly do acknowledge that he has made many positive contributions.

That being said, I first felt uncomfortable with Dehlin when he announced that he would be working on his PhD. Not that I don't think trained counselors are a great benefit to society. His career change-- introducing a commercial opportunity after having cultivated and groomed a following of people who are struggling with their relationships to Mormonism-- just seemed a bit too opportunistic and exploitive.

I felt the same way about for-profit GA books. I feel the same way every time one of my LDS friends tried to sell me Jamberry, Tupperware, Pampered Chef, etc. Our relationships are lessened by the realization that they are able to view me as part of their potential customer base. I would have conducted the relationship differently-- with more skepticism, cynicism, hesitation, less charity-- if I had known that that 'friend' was comfortable placing me in the category of "people I might be able to get money from." Maybe we would have become friends, maybe not. But I would have conducted the relationship differently.

If I had known from the beginning that Dehlin viewed his following that way (as potential future customers), I would feel more comfortable with him now because I would have likewise viewed him differently from the beginning. Maybe I still would have paid attention to him over the past decade, maybe not, but I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with him personally over this issue.

[_Mercury]

John Dehlin doesn't do what John Dehlin does for John Dehlin. John Dehlin does what John Dehlin does because John Dehlin is John Dehlin.

Or James Cameron....whatever. Who gives a f*ck.