Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

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_Tavares Standfield
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _Tavares Standfield »

moksha wrote:
If destruction is inevitable, then by golly let the poached-salmon fed folks of the Hamptons and the Bohemian Grove do the destroying.


Replace China with any other state or region. The point remains the same.

No nation exists in a vacuum. As a result, its actions alone do nothing to impact long-term climate change.

How can a nation defend its strategic interests -- including its own citizens -- if it willfully cripples itself while an opposing nation with competing interests empowers itself?

Again, what I think is required -- and will be very difficult to achieve -- is strong global governance where individual nations lose sovereignty over their energy and population policies. Without that, I don't see how much progress can be made.

TS
_Markk
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _Markk »

Think the suggestion was that we gave a bump to this climate wobble.


Maybe...I have no idea...but there are lots of questions unanswered. And I highly doubt that this is caused by religion. That is pure BS. If it is a man made problem it is caused by ignorant progress and business. I would love to see the portfolios of all the scientists and professors blaming this on religion...what do you believe their pensions and 401K's are invested in?

The very science is a by product of what they claim is the cause of all this. Next time they go to the lab, or turn on their computer, or walk through the halls of multi million dollar universities, or a NASA, take a look around, after they turn on the lights, adjust the HVAC, grab a diet Coke from the refrigerator and check the stock exchange on their I phone.

There was a scientist that went to play golf, he was paired with a plumber, truck driver, and a mail man. As they played this man of science told these men of all his accomplishments, his awards, his published works in journals, his finds and theories. He told these men why the world was the way it was, how man is destroying it...etc. This went on and on for around 15 holes with these men fully captured by this mans accomplishments and opinions. Then a large thunder cloud came over and burst and poured out rain...the professor started running around in circles screaming what do we do. what do we do...the 3 men calmly looked at him and said...lets get out of the rain?

I certainly don't have the answers for the earths climate issues or patterns , and where it is going, but I know what it is not... the fault of people of faith.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_DrW
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _DrW »

Tavares Standfield wrote:DrW,

Putting aside your hatred of Western religion I was hoping you could offer your insight on something.

I certainly would not characterize my attitude toward religion as one of hatred. It is more one of annoyance toward the predatory leaders mixed with some measure of of pity for the duped followers.

Tavares Standfield wrote: If the West does everything it can/should to address climate change while China, Russia, India, and others make no changes and continue to 1) use dirty energy and 2) reproduce at high rates (well, not China) then all Western efforts will be completely useless. Indeed, they are likely dangerous. Why let the Chinese have cheap energy -- to build cars and armies -- while we limit ourselves to solar?

If we can't force the whole world to change then any individual national change is completely absurd.

How would you address this problem? What type of global governance would you put in place to force all people and nations to stop breeding and stop making use of coal etc... in my opinion, we need a strong UN Secretary General to demand that, in this specific area, nations give up their right to self-determination and follow the global requirement.

TS

First of all - and this is important - no one I know of is claiming that we should ever rely completely on solar power. I trust that you meant this statement as an absurd example to make a point.

In order to have stable power grids, solar cannot make up more than a small percentage of the total generating capacity. Solar power is expensive and if there is too much of it in the generation mix, there can be (will be) big problems on cloudy days.

There are power grids in Southern California that have learned this lesson the hard way. Re-balancing generation mix can be very costly, especially if too much of the generation budget went into developing solar in the first place.

Anyway, as I have tried to make clear, it is too late to avoid the untoward consequences of rapid climate change. It may have been too late a long time ago.

In my opinion, and that of many others, what we need to do now is to prepare to avoid or mitigate those consequences. What is to be done?

You are absolutely correct in saying that we cannot control foreign governments when it comes to energy resource usage. In fact, the US is seen, and rightly so, as the major offender when it comes to excessive fossil fuel use per capita and GHG emissions in general.

That is changing now, to some extent, thanks to stricter emission limits on coal fired power plants by the Obama Administration, stricter vehicle emission standards, and the increasing availability of relatively clean natural gas from fracking in the US.

Also tipping the balance, as you mentioned, is the rapid expansion of coal usage in China and India. If this trend continues, the US will continue to curb the growth in GHG emissions, while emissions from China and India increase. Due to high energy prices and a lack of native clean fossil fuel resources, GHG emissions from Europe are relatively stable for the time being.

Realistic intermediate term planning is important. In order to accomplish this in the US, we need to change attitudes. We need to be learn to be happy with smaller cars, smaller houses, and be willing to pay for more energy efficient appliances and equipment.

We need to start approving funding for projects like the new levies in New Orleans or seawalls in New York before the next disaster strikes. We need to stop building on forest fire prone lands in the west.

Here in Florida, we have building codes that would drive folks in the Midwest crazy. But since they have been in place, I know of no homes that have been completely destroyed (as they often were in the past) by hurricane winds.

We need to phase out federal disaster relief bail outs for homeowners who choose to live in flood or storm surge prone areas. We just won't have the resources in the future to do this. Folks will have to take the risks and suffer the reduction in property values that come with this change in policy.

In terms of reducing GHG emissions, we can continue the trend toward smaller displacement engines. (My 2.0 liter twin turbo blows the doors of of my wife's normally aspirated 3.5 liter - and uses a lot less fuel doing it.)

In short, we cannot worry too much about what we cannot control. Each region, each country, and each local jurisdiction must plan and prepare internally, while seeking cooperation with other willing communities, where possible.

Those communities, of whatever size, that start early, develop the best plans, and use their resources wisely, will likely be the ones that emerge in the best shape once the climate re-stabilizes (rate of change slows), and it eventually will.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_huckelberry
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _huckelberry »

malkie wrote:
Tavares Standfield wrote:If any of us gave a damn we'd give up industrialization and go live the simple life off the land.

And whether any of us give a damn or not, it is likely that some not-so-future generation will do just that. But not willingly. And with much smaller numbers that we have had recently.

And I believe that mankind will likely never recover to anything like the current level of "civilization", because the current one was built on a once-in-an-earth's-lifetime endowment of cheap and easy energy.

Malkie, You have stated the view that keeps coming to my mind. It sounds to me people underestimate our dependence upon fossil fuels for daily life. I was surprised by Beastie's use of the us them division with guilt all on them. You cannot simplify and live on potatoes and avoid the problem. To get potatoes fields are plowed planted harvested with oil guzzling machines. Potatoes are trucked to distribution and then to market with the same dependence.We all use oil all the time in many ways.

Our fossil fuels will run out and our moment of oil based fluoresence of civilization will experience a brutal retrenchment.

Sure I hope science devises better ways of utilizing the renewable resources. It certainly makes sense to start now and not wait. I remain astonished at how blithely people assume that oil is replaceable in anything remotely resembling current civalization, current population however.How many people are practicing by going through this winter with their home heat turned off? That is the future.
_DrW
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _DrW »

Markk wrote:So are you claiming that the earths pre industrialized weather patterns are more or less "fixed?" And given weather changes take billions of years...how do you establish a bell given only a couple of hundred years of known weather patterns?

I am certainly not claiming that pre-industrial weather patterns were more or less fixed. Far from it. In fact, if you re-read my post, you will see that I mentioned significant changes in climate over the last few billion years of Earth's existence. Specifically, I said;
DrW wrote:Climate changes over geologic time, measured in billions of years, have been dramatic - no doubt.

How do you get pre-industrial weather patterns more of less fixed out of that statement?

I'm sure that you have seen posts by me on this board describing the Beringia Land Bridge that allowed human migration from North Eastern Asia to the New World during the last ice age from some 24,000 years ago up to some 12,000 years ago, when sea levels were more than a hundred feet lower than they are today.

More recently, there have been a number temperature minimums associated with the Little Ice Age (ca. 1550 to 1850) that followed the Medieval Warm Period.

Markk wrote:Also...lets say you are correct...what do we do to fix it? You are King of the world...what do you do? Give me say...the first ten steps or decrees that you do to stop climate change?

I addressed this issue in my response above to Tavaris Standfield.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Markk
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _Markk »

huckelberry wrote:
Sure I hope science devises better ways of utilizing the renewable resources. It certainly makes sense to start now and not wait. I remain astonished at how blithely people assume that oil is replaceable in anything remotely resembling current civalization, current population however.How many people are practicing by going through this winter with their home heat turned off? That is the future.


Not to mention that the very most technology that is blamed on Global warming...is invented and created by scientists and engineers...not the potato famer who goes to church on Sunday.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_DrW
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _DrW »

Zadok wrote:DrW, I have a scenario which may solve the problem for you, and you don't have to worry about a thing.

In spite of urgings by leaders, Christian birth rates seem to be falling. Europe, Americas, the traditionally 'white' populations are shrinking in relation to the growing populations of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhism (and other Chinese religions).

It will not be long before the extremists in each of these major religions will go to holy war, against other religions which they see as threats to their own. For the most part they will behead, and annihilate each other.

Our job will be to lay low, keep quiet and reap the benefits of a much smaller global population.

Great plan.

One thing you may not have considered is the fact that we have a political party in this country that seldom sees a war they don't like. In order for your plan to work, the more non-interventionist policies of the current administration would need to become national policy over the longer haul.

What are the chances of that happening?
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_DrW
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _DrW »

Markk wrote:
Think the suggestion was that we gave a bump to this climate wobble.


Maybe...I have no idea...but there are lots of questions unanswered. And I highly doubt that this is caused by religion. That is pure BS. If it is a man made problem it is caused by ignorant progress and business. I would love to see the portfolios of all the scientists and professors blaming this on religion...what do you believe their pensions and 401K's are invested in?

The very science is a by product of what they claim is the cause of all this. Next time they go to the lab, or turn on their computer, or walk through the halls of multi million dollar universities, or a NASA, take a look around, after they turn on the lights, adjust the HVAC, grab a diet Coke from the refrigerator and check the stock exchange on their I phone.

There was a scientist that went to play golf, he was paired with a plumber, truck driver, and a mail man. As they played this man of science told these men of all his accomplishments, his awards, his published works in journals, his finds and theories. He told these men why the world was the way it was, how man is destroying it...etc. This went on and on for around 15 holes with these men fully captured by this mans accomplishments and opinions. Then a large thunder cloud came over and burst and poured out rain...the professor started running around in circles screaming what do we do. what do we do...the 3 men calmly looked at him and said...lets get out of the rain?

I certainly don't have the answers for the earths climate issues or patterns , and where it is going, but I know what it is not... the fault of people of faith.

I am not claiming that global climate change is the fault of religionists (or people of faith, as you put it).

What I am simply saying, and there is a ton of evidence to back this up, is that fundamentalist Christians, and the folks they send to state and national legislatures, are the major obstacle in the US to doing something about it.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Chap
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _Chap »

Markk wrote:... a large thunder cloud came over and burst and poured out rain...the professor started running around in circles screaming what do we do. what do we do...the 3 men calmly looked at him and said...lets get out of the rain?[/i]


Somehow I don't think you know many award winning scientists.

This silly little caricature tells us nothing much, except about your wish to believe in comforting stereotypes.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_beastie
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Re: Mormonism, the Anthropocene and the End of Civilization

Post by _beastie »

huckelberry wrote:I was surprised by Beastie's use of the us them division with guilt all on them. You cannot simplify and live on potatoes and avoid the problem. To get potatoes fields are plowed planted harvested with oil guzzling machines. Potatoes are trucked to distribution and then to market with the same dependence.We all use oil all the time in many ways.



Perhaps I wasn't clear in the blame I was laying at their feet, although I think my subsequent response clarified it.

I am definitely not blaming the fact of global climate change on this segment of religionists. Of course all of us who benefit from industrialization share that blame. I am blaming this segment of religionists for making it politically unpalatable for our leaders to take the sort of action that was necessary to prevent the type of global change our descendants are going to face. I do think it's possible they've been manipulated by powerful corporations who did not want to lose power by the changes that would have had to take place. Nonetheless, this segment of religionists, perhaps due to their innate distrust of science, played right into their hands.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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