Former Stake President Excommunicated for being a woman.

[_Kishkumen]

Gender and gender identity are complicated things. I say treat the journeys of others with respect, even if you can't understand them. Maybe it's not your thing. Maybe you don't understand. Still, no one needs to be an asshole when confronted with uncomfortable facts. I understand the temptation to behave like a frightened child. We all are that frightened child on some level, but being a civilized person involves not acting on the impulses of the frightened child in you. Be civilized. Be like Marcus.

'All men are made one for another: either then teach them better or bear with them.'

When you fall short of understanding, the latter is the better choice.

[_DoubtingThomas]

First off, this is not a woman/female.

This is a cross dressing man/male who wants to

1. Take female hormones to add to his man boobs and raise his voice
2. Cut off his male parts and create a hole in his crouch and call it a vagina.

He is, and never will be, a she.

I disagree, artificial genital organs are already a reality. We don't know the limits of Science.
I wouldn't bet on "never will be".

[_Kishkumen]

Facts don't care about feelings.

Are you a fact or a human being? We recognize and live with each other's fantasies because we care about them. Treating other human beings as brute facts is not very kind. Nor is hiding behind facts as an excuse to hurt other people's feelings.

Being honest about reality isn't "mean." There is nothing sophisticated, or kind, about promoting this gender confusion. I wish this man well, but I'm not going to lie and deny the objective biological fact that he is a man. I'm also not going to get worked up and act like the church committed some great crime by excommunicating him. This man isn't a victim. Given the position he was in, excommunication was their only option. Either the guy appears on Mormon Stories as an excommunicated tranny, or he appears on Mormon Stories as the first "female" member of the priesthood.

This is the kind of answer I would expect from someone who has a very rudimentary understanding of the relationship between biology and culture.

It is not a small irony that so many who call the church/members out for living in a fantasy world would hypocritically promote this kind of thing. It's insane to believe in gold plates and polygamist prophets and gardens with talking snakes, but a man wanting to cut his penis off and pretend to be a woman is totally sane and we're all assholes if we don't accept "her?" I'm not going to go out of my way to be mean to be this person. in real life I'd be perfectly friendly. I'd be a good neighbor and coworker and all that. But I'm also not going to be bullied by people that want to make a victim out of him and create some new special class that I must submit to.

Hey, I have no problem with people believing in gold plates. I have no problem with consenting adults engaging in polygamy. I have no problem with a guy concluding he is a woman and transitioning. None of this is any of my personal business. I prefer treating everyone with a generous measure of respect and dignity. Sure, I fail, but that is my aspiration. I am primarily here on this board because I saw apologists bullying fellow members of the Church. They could not live and let live. But, hey, I am cool with people believing what they like and doing what they like, so long as it does not interfere with my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

[_EAllusion]

Facts don't care about feelings.

The fact is that people with male genitalia have female psychological (brain) states and the psychological states correspond to what male or female gender means much better than genitals. Your feelings about gender roles and what they ought to be do not change these facts.

That's the core irony of your assertion. It's your feelings about antiquated ideas of what it means to be a man or a woman that getting in the way of you understanding what transgenderism is and why it matters.

P.S. Saying "tranny" in the context you did is more or less the same as referring to a homosexual as a "faggot."

[_Sanctorian]

I saw a full sized man on the side of the road with midget arms. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed. I saw a black man who looked rough. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed. I saw an old unattractive weathered woman. I tried to not care or stare, but I failed. I saw a man transition to a woman. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed.

My point, these people are all different than me simply by circumstance. Because of that, I have impulses and biases that negatively impact my judgement on others. Seeing PP and WDs responses is a reminder that our biases, if not challenged, can put us in a place of missed opportunities. I guess that's being human. But, just because I was born a white male American with all the luxuries that come associated with winning the birth lottery, I hope I can strip away my born based bias to not judge another until he/she deserves negative judgement by their actions, not their looks. It's hard to do sometimes.

[_DoubtingThomas]

A TBM woman in Utah getting a boob job is an example of patriarchy and oppression. A man gets a boob job though and it's some high-minded form of liberalism.

Not all LGBT supporters think the same, just like not all American Christians believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Atheist youtube star Jaclyn Glenn is an LGBT supporter, she recently got a boob job. Yes she was born female.
https://youtu.be/KoY1GpjgrsQ

A fake vagina is a fake vagina, no matter how realistic it appears and feels.

Would you say the same about someone with a prosthetic leg?

Let me ask you something, what public restroom does a Trans woman with a bionic penis use? Would you (or your wife, girlfriend) feel comfortable sharing the restroom with a lesbian woman that looks like a man?

No conservative has been able to answer my questions

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I saw a full sized man on the side of the road with midget arms. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed. I saw a black man who looked rough. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed. I saw an old unattractive weathered woman. I tried to not care or stare, but I failed. I saw a man transition to a woman. I tried not to care or stare, but I failed.

You just equated a black man with midget arms guy, an unattractive woman, and a trans. Lolol... If I were a black person I'd be thinking, "“F” ing white people, man...". Lol...

- Doc

[_sock puppet]

Although I'm not sure it is written down, I'm fairly certain that LDS believe that Heavenly Father does not make mistakes in our creation.

How do they explain hermaphrodites? Or the occurrence of homosexuality in so many different species? if not as god's "mistakes"?

[_EAllusion]

My partner works at a child psychiatric hospital. A huge % of cases she sees are transgender kids emergency detained after a suicide attempt. It's heart-wrenching to hear about.

[_EAllusion]

LOL.

Three years ago, my daughter went off to her liberal arts college which was kicked off with a small group activity lead by a professor. When the professor asked the students to introduce themselves to the group, she requested that they tell the group what gender of personal pronouns they preferred to be referred to with. At first my daughter thought it was a joke. It wasn't.

It's a brave new world.

I know you aren't complaining about this, but there is a legitimate wing of the academic left that unhinged in its pursuit of social justice for transgender people. Dealing with them can be an obnoxious ordeal or worse. If you follow academic philosophy at all, you've probably heard about this story:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/20 ... versy.html

Dr. Rebecca Tuval had a perfectly reasonable article she wrote on philosophical arguments around transgenderism and the notion of "transracialism" published in a relatively obscure feminist philosophy journal. She was then the victim of an large witchhunt against her by academic leftists. The more you learn about this story, the worse it gets. It's awful.

I think about these things and sometimes see comments in discussions on the plight of transgender people that bring up how the left has gone through the looking glass on this one. One the one hand, sure, if by "left" you mean a specific educated, leftwing subculture with a lot of influence in academia, but no where else. But on the other hand, this always seems to be brought up when you are also seeing ridiculous comments like PP and Water Dog's in this thread.

It's a near mirror equivalent of making complaints about Judith Butler's activism when someone is busy saying, "Don't you know anything?! Marriage is between a man and a woman by definition. It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve homos!"

So perspective is warranted. Again, I know you aren't doing this, but the contrast between you joking about professors tip-toeing around offending someone's gender pronoun preferences while a poster not far above you is basically offering a hate speech was a little jarring. It's like reading someone talk about how homosexuality is a mental illness, followed by someone joking about how gay marriage makes some wedding traditions harder to figure out. You get whiplash from the change in tones.