Sextortionist sent on a Mission by LDS Church Apostle

[_Morley]

A parallel example might help. If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

How about if you exercise a little faith that the CoJCoLDS God actually does what He ostensibly claims to do? His prophets say God picks missionaries--perhaps you should have faith in the word of God and His prophets.

[_Xenophon]

A parallel example might help. If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

How about if you exercise a little faith that the CoJCoLDS God actually does what He ostensibly claims to do? His prophets say God picks missionaries--perhaps you should have faith in the word of God and His prophets.

Also, are there not countless examples of people being present for miracles and still choosing not to believe? This idea that just because there would be countless miracles means that you wouldn't be able to then choose how to respond is not supported by scripture. Were all those that witnessed Christ and his works converted? If not, MG, how does that square with how you believe it would turn out if God stepped in all the time (or even just way more than he seems to now)?

[_Dr Exiled]

They just fill in new missionaries where needed. One never sees lopsided calls to one mission and then a magical burst of converts. Also, I know personally that my friends' G.A. fathers and/or grandfathers pulled strings to get these friends "called" to the missions where they wanted to go. My brother took advantage of this through my father's connections and went where he wanted to go. So, it isn't surprising that this alleged criminal missionary made it through the "spiritual" channels. Also, I know of several who were having sexual relations right up until they left on their missions and they didn't get turned away. They all served until the end. "Discernment" is a funny thing. It only works backwards. As the tried and true formula says, hits are counted as being from god and misses are counted as human failings. MG can put whatever shine he wants to on this. It doesn't change the facts. Desire to continue to believe is a strong impulse that he cannot seem to control.

[_Lemmie]

So faith is believing that when a priesthood blessing calls for healing and the person is healed, that is evidence of divine intervention, and therefore god exists. But also, faith is believing that when a priesthood blessing calls for healing and the person is NOT healed, that is ALSO evidence of divine intervention because divine intervention shouldn't be expected to always happen, and therefore god exists. It seems to me that if priesthood blessings are truly inspired, then the inspiration should be to not promise what god won't do. Of course, that's the fault of man if they don't get that part right, and therefore more evidence that god exists. What a convoluted argument to explain chance.

So, missionary calls are considered inspired if and only if after the fact they turn out okay? That's like saying you were lucky to win the lottery, but only after you win the lottery. Which I see Exiled just stated, far more succinctly:

"Discernment" is a funny thing. It only works backwards.

What is really unacceptable is to try to maintain the discernment position by arguing this:

The question, at least in my mind, is whether God steps in...in each and every case...to curtail the calling of sinners to positions [or] callings within the church. Personally, I don't see how that would even work [or] look. What I do see, however, are many instances where sinners [or] perps are caught and the consequences follow. Sometimes later rather than sooner, granted.

[brackets are for grammar]

That sounds like arguing that god uses a strategy whereby sinners are caught by putting victims in their path. That is unacceptable.

[_fetchface]

Why does having faith (ie believing that priesthood blessings are effective even if there is no evidence of this) make you a good person?

I wish that I had grown up in an environment where doing good works was the way to be good, not having the "correct" beliefs about unknowable things.

Having faith doesn't make you good, doing good things makes you good. You can be completely mistaken in all of your supernatural beliefs and be a great person. If God doesn't recognize this, the deficiency lies with God.

I feel comfortable saying that this kind of faith is without worth.

[Guest]

Why does having faith (ie believing that priesthood blessings are effective even if there is no evidence of this) make you a good person?

I wish that I had grown up in an environment where doing good works was the way to be good, not having the "correct" beliefs about unknowable things.

Having faith doesn't make you good, doing good things makes you good. You can be completely mistaken in all of your supernatural beliefs and be a great person. If God doesn't recognize this, the deficiency lies with God.

I feel comfortable saying that this kind of faith is without worth.

It’s worse than that. The faith idea being proffered is a faith in Church Leaders when all the evidence points to it being as foolhardy as maintaining faith that Bernie Madoff wouldn’t nick your money even though you’ve seen him convicted of a massive fraud. The Mission President of the sextortionist missionary, along with his companions, ward members etc had faith that the Apostle who called him, did so under divine guidance. It’s clearly not the case. How many sex pests need to slip through the net of discernment before members realise there ain’t no net?

[_SteelHead]

I wish that I had grown up in an environment where doing good works was the way to be good, not having the "correct" beliefs about unknowable things.

Having faith doesn't make you good, doing good things makes you good. You can be completely mistaken in all of your supernatural beliefs and be a great person. If God doesn't recognize this, the deficiency lies with God.

I feel comfortable saying that this kind of faith is without worth.

Qotd
Wins the interwebz today.

[_schreech]

Why does having faith (ie believing that priesthood blessings are effective even if there is no evidence of this) make you a good person?

I wish that I had grown up in an environment where doing good works was the way to be good, not having the "correct" beliefs about unknowable things.

Having faith doesn't make you good, doing good things makes you good. You can be completely mistaken in all of your supernatural beliefs and be a great person. If God doesn't recognize this, the deficiency lies with God.

I feel comfortable saying that this kind of faith is without worth.

It’s worse than that. The faith idea being proffered is a faith in Church Leaders when all the evidence points to it being as foolhardy as maintaining faith that Bernie Madoff wouldn’t nick your money even though you’ve seen him convicted of a massive fraud. The Mission President of the sextortionist missionary, along with his companions, ward members etc had faith that the Apostle who called him, did so under divine guidance. It’s clearly not the case. How many sex pests need to slip through the net of discernment before members realise there ain’t no net?

Exactly. Reading MGs twisted views on faith, elohim and elohim's finicky involvement with humanity makes me realize that he, and people like him, choose to worship and arse-hole. A supreme being who may or may not step in when asked and a supreme being who requires blind faith and devotion with absolutely no non-imaginary payoff. Loki...

They literally spend time on sites like this making excuses for god's poor behavior like an abused spouse. Saying things akin to "it was for our own good" when they make asinine excuses like "it just requires faith to understand why god didn't stop a sexual predator from running amok in the mission field", "God was testing our faith and can't just step in every time something bad is about to happen" or even "What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?" to excuse the fact that god NEVER steps in all while the clowns who claim to speak for god enable sexual predators. Its pretty disgusting. What a pathetic, ineffectual god he chooses to worship and what an uninspired group of bigoted con men he chooses to follow. Such a waste of time and energy but its what he has conditioned himself to believe - the gospel of mentalgymnast.

[_schreech]

I don't agree with this. I do think that the missionaries are called/placed in areas where they are needed. I think that inspiration is part of that process.

You can believe whatever you want, unfortunately your belief doesn't correspond with reality. You can't, in any way, show that there is any inspiration involved with mission calls. In fact, all you are really able to prove is that many people who should should not be on missions are sent out bypassing and negating any claims to inspiration unless you just accept that you worship loki.

There are multiple instances where individuals have been called that were sinners. You can go clear back to John C. Bennett. The question, at least in my mind, is whether God steps in...in each and every case...to curtail the calling of sinners to positions/callings within the church. Personally, I don't see how that would even work/look. What I do see, however, are many instances where sinners/perps are caught and the consequences follow. Sometimes later rather than sooner, granted.

god never steps in, that is the point. You don't see how that would work because you choose not to see how that works. What does god have to do with "sinners/perps" being caught after the fact? What an absolutely disgusting point to make - god lets someone sexual abuse a child but, hey, its ok because he made it so sometimes they get caught after the fact! WTF? There is nothing in anything that you just typed that requires the existence of god.

A parallel example might help. If God were to step in each and every time and curtail every sickness/disease...even when priesthood blessings are given...how would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith? What if God was to step in everytime and evil is about to be perpetrated? How would that evolve/look over time? Would there still be room for choosing between doubt and faith?

Point to on instance where god stepped in, ever. You can't. You can pretend and believe that god/elohim/loki/zuess stepped in but your choice to believe something doesn't make it a reality. You can't point to time where any god has ever stepped in so your simplistic excuses for blindly devoting your life to elohim and the Mormon church is moot. Your god is an arse-hole who leaves blindly devoted simpletons, like yourself, looking foolish as they try to excuse his and his spokespeople's uninspired, abusive and abhorrent behavior. What a massive waste of time.

"I've begun worshipping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It's there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, and a lovely day. There's no mystery, no one asks for money, I don't have to dress up, and there's no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to "God" are all answered at about the same 50% rate." - carlin

[_mentalgymnast]

So, missionary calls are considered inspired if and only if after the fact they turn out okay?

I think it all comes down to this.

Answer me this those that are willing to cut some slack to the New Testament account of Christ and the Last Supper. Let's say that this narrative describes an event that actually happened between Christ and his disciples. And, let's assume that He was indeed the Messiah and God Incarnate and/or the second member of a Godhead.

Here's the question: Did Jesus make a mistake when he called Judas Iscariot to be an Apostle...one of the twelve? Why or why not?

Did everything turn out okay?

Regards,
MG