On Sandra Tanner and "Enemies of Mormonism"

[_Kishkumen]

The sad narration about Mormonism is that it follows the tantrums of Mr. Trump.

For such powerful entities, they both resort to play-ground name calling when dealing with opposing opinions and views. Instead of acknowledging that a different view is not necessarily completely wrong, they attack the presenter and villainize them.

Hey, Mormonicious. I see what you are saying. However, I am trying to keep the broader category of Mormonism separate from the LDS Church and Joseph Smith as an individual.

[_Philo Sofee]

The Tanners had the unfair advantage of actual history on their side. Just the same, the defenders made great sophistry despite that disadvantage. History was the enemy!

History is always the enemy of faith, as it deals in the truth.... however, everything we know is only interpretation. Hence the rise of faith.

[_DonBradley]

I agree with Kish that Sandra is an enemy of Mormonism (pretty obviously).

I also agree that she is a very kind person.

I only met Jerald Tanner once, at their bookstore. I have to admit to genuine shock when he came out to the store and I saw one of the most saintly looking human beings I'd ever seen. I'm not saying I think he accurately characterized Mormonism or appreciated its genuine goodness or anything like that - that wouldn't be true. However, he was very kind when I interacted with him and suspect that the saintly look of his face grew from having spent a lifetime devoted to his religious ideals. He really saw Mormonism as a diversion that led people away from Christ, and therefore away from God and truth and salvation, and he was trying to save them.

Sandra I've talked to many times, though not for a few years now. She reminded me of my own grandmother. We once talked about Joseph Smith and she expressed tremendous fascination with his personality--"What a life!" she kept saying, of the wild ride that his life was. I quite genuinely like her.

One of my very favorite critics of the church is Ron Huggins, who is good friends with Sandra. Ron I know to be one of the most humble followers of Christ I have ever met.

I can actually understand the intense opposition these folks have to Mormonism, since, honestly, if I believed Mormons were in danger of literally eternal torment--as they do--there would be virtually nothing that would be out of bounds to try to save people from such a horror.

I also think they are tremendously wrong. The church is not what they think it is. But I sure do respect them as people.

Don

[_Stem]

I agree with Kish that Sandra is an enemy of Mormonism (pretty obviously).

I also agree that she is a very kind person.

I only met Jerald Tanner once, at their bookstore. I have to admit to genuine shock when he came out to the store and I saw one of the most saintly looking human beings I'd ever seen. I'm not saying I think he accurately characterized Mormonism or appreciated its genuine goodness or anything like that - that wouldn't be true. However, he was very kind when I interacted with him and suspect that the saintly look of his face grew from having spent a lifetime devoted to his religious ideals. He really saw Mormonism as a diversion that led people away from Christ, and therefore away from God and truth and salvation, and he was trying to save them.

Sandra I've talked to many times, though not for a few years now. She reminded me of my own grandmother. We once talked about Joseph Smith and she expressed tremendous fascination with his personality--"What a life!" she kept saying, of the wild ride that his life was. I quite genuinely like her.

One of my very favorite critics of the church is Ron Huggins, who is good friends with Sandra. Ron I know to be one of the most humble followers of Christ I have ever met.

I can actually understand the intense opposition these folks have to Mormonism, since, honestly, if I believed Mormons were in danger of literally eternal torment--as they do--there would be virtually nothing that would be out of bounds to try to save people from such a horror.

I also think they are tremendously wrong. The church is not what they think it is. But I sure do respect them as people.

Don

When you break it down to the human level the dogma of religion becomes really pointless. People carry wonderful spirit, or at least potentially so. Religion is hardly the sole contributor to bringing that out.

[_grindael]

Sandra is my friend and I finally got to meet her in person last summer. I think that using the word enemy is not a big deal. Sandra is religious and believes in good and evil and uses the terminology of the Bible as descriptors. Just like Satan is the enemy of Christ, Mormonism is the enemy of Christianity because it is viewed by Christians as a false gospel. (Kind of the way Joseph described Christianity in relation to his own restored gospel). Therefore, she would be an enemy of any false gospel. And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Mormons define themselves as Christians. But who could ever fault Kish here? Geeze, he could not be more inoffensive.

You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (James 4)

If you are a Mormon apostate, then they have justification to think of you as an enemy.

[_Meadowchik]

Sandra is my friend and I finally got to meet her in person last summer. I think that using the word enemy is not a big deal. Sandra is religious and believes in good and evil and uses the terminology of the Bible as descriptors. Just like Satan is the enemy of Christ, Mormonism is the enemy of Christianity because it is viewed by Christians as a false gospel. (Kind of the way Joseph described Christianity in relation to his own restored gospel). Therefore, she would be an enemy of any false gospel. And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Mormons define themselves as Christians. But who could ever fault Kish here? Geeze, he could not be more inoffensive.

You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (James 4)

If you are a Mormon apostate, then they have justification to think of you as an enemy.

I really enjoyed meeting her a couple years ago. She was very kind.

I referenced Sandra Tanner because Kish referenced her, but I wished to discuss the rhetoric in general terms. The fact that Tanner might also use the term doesn't change any problem of bad terminology. I think the terminology is less productive, especially if one uses it as part of a good faith attempt at communicating with integrity.

I'm sure Kish can handle a bit of push-back.

[_Maksutov]

I'm an enemy of Mormon authoritarianism.

I am not an enemy of Mormons or even Mormon culture. Those are natural and organic things, weird and flawed as you might expect. It is the corporate construct of power, dishonest, manipulative and parasitic on the group, that I am most opposed to.

[_Res Ipsa]

Sandra is my friend and I finally got to meet her in person last summer. I think that using the word enemy is not a big deal. Sandra is religious and believes in good and evil and uses the terminology of the Bible as descriptors. Just like Satan is the enemy of Christ, Mormonism is the enemy of Christianity because it is viewed by Christians as a false gospel. (Kind of the way Joseph described Christianity in relation to his own restored gospel). Therefore, she would be an enemy of any false gospel. And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Mormons define themselves as Christians. But who could ever fault Kish here? Geeze, he could not be more inoffensive.

You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (James 4)

If you are a Mormon apostate, then they have justification to think of you as an enemy.

I agree Grindael. I see nothing wrong with describing the Tanners as enemies of Mormonism, as I think that’s how they see themselves. I actually don’t like the term opponents, because it doesn’t distinguish between a person who is critical of Mormonism from someone who sees himself as actively pursuing its destruction.

I have a soft spot for the Tanners because their Mormonism: Shadow our Reality confirmed my belief that the LDS Church was not what it claimed to be.

[_aussieguy55]

My encounter with the Tanners was brought about by a Mormon bishop many years ago. He decided some of us Mormon youth should have a get together with a group of Seventh Day Adventist youth. There was much in common such as similar to the word of wisdom. There I met a guy who was a book collector like myself. He had a copy of Mormonism Shadow or Reality. At the time I was an avid reader Nibley's books and articles.In their book I saw lots of quotes from Dialogue which I had just started reading. Many were from Wesley P Walters a Presbyterian pastor in a church in Marissa Illinois had written a paper on the First Vision and the Revival question for Dialogue Spring 1969. Later Milton Backman wrote a book on the FV. I wrote to the Tanners asking for their thoughts and they sent my letter onto Walters who responded. Backman failed to include Walter's paper in his book. Walter responded with a number of arguments. Both Michael Quinn and Dan Vogel met with Walters who shared information with them. in my opinion Walters showed the revival matched the data for 1823-24 and the Smith family joined the Presbyterian church then not 1820. Even Richard Bushman seems to admit this possibility. See RSR p. 570. fnt 30. Smith senior refused to join because the preacher said Alvin Smith had gone to hell. (died 1823).Perhaps Walter's work on the revival and his finding of the 1826 trial docs made him an enemy of Mormonism.

[_grindael]

aussieguy,

My friend Ron Huggins is writing a bio of the Tanners and it's got all that information in it. It's going to be great. I would love to see one on Mike Marquardt, who in my opinion is one of the greatest historians on Mormonism to ever grace this earth. And he was at the center of everything that went on during the Tanner Era (which in my opinion is still going on). But Ron does cover a lot of how Mike interacted with the Tanners.. and there are some pretty mindbending stories that are going to come out.