Vogel's first short on YouTube

[Shulem]

It seems early Mormonism did not blend well in the United States at the time. There was a desire--a recurrent theme--to get out of at least the areas organized as states, into areas such as west of the state of Missouri (an area unorganized from 1821-1855), possibly into the Republic of Texas, or into Mexico (present day Utah was Mexican territory when the first pioneers arrived in 1847). As compared to today's high deference by the government towards religions in America, how was the situation in the 1830s and 1840s?

Yes, you are essentially correct. Joseph Smith wanted to set up his empire and rule and reign as prophet, seer, and revelator over the New Jerusalem and preside over it as a spiritual king until such time as Jesus Christ himself would come and claim it at his second coming which was perceived as imminent and at hand. Smith, Adam, and ultimately Jesus was the end game. But Smith's plans failed and Nauvoo became the fallback for new plans. Smith hoped to become President of the Unites States and rule and reign over white supremacy under the banner of a Mormon state. Ultimately, it was Smith's plan to turn America into a Mormon state governed under Mormon law.

[Moksha]

... a Mormon state governed under Mormon law.

After Smith high-tailed it across the Mississippi, he should have sent for Porter Rockwell and another trail-savvy Danite and traveled to Fort Bridger, Wyoming where he could have met up with the rest of the pioneers. Utah was especially designed for being a Mormon place governed by Mormon law. He would have been safe until meeting his fate at the hand of a jealous husband.

[Shulem]

... a Mormon state governed under Mormon law.

After Smith high-tailed it across the Mississippi, he should have sent for Porter Rockwell and another trail-savvy Danite and traveled to Fort Bridger, Wyoming where he could have met up with the rest of the pioneers. Utah was especially designed for being a Mormon place governed by Mormon law. He would have been safe until meeting his fate at the hand of a jealous husband.

There is a dark and sinister truth to what you suggest. I am inclined to think that Smith was on a dangerous path that would have led to religious government grounded in totalitarianism which ultimately would have ended in violence with his fellow Americans. Smith's Mormonism was a grave threat to peace and stability and his ultimate plan was to wrap up everyone and everything under the umbrella of Mormon control and seize all government. He was willing to prophecy of war (D&C 87) even as he was willing to participate in war! As a man thinketh, so is he. Joseph Smith, I believe, was a murderer in his heart and quite capable of killing to meet his end goal of ruling the world.

Joseph Smith was a dangerous man capable of murder and mayhem. Thank goodness he was stopped because there is no telling how far he was willing to go. When men get total control and begin to shed blood there are no bounds on how far they will go to satisfy their personal ambition and fantasy.

I wonder if Vogel touches on this kind of speculation in his book?

What say ye, Vogel? Do you believe that Smith was capable of committing first degree murder? You testify of the man and write all about him which I have yet to read, but do you have an opinion on his dark side and just how far he would have taken his ambitions to achieve his goals?

[Moksha]

You testify of the man and write all about him which I have yet to read, but do you have an opinion on his dark side and just how far he would have taken his ambitions to achieve his goals?

Chris Smith thought the expectation to behave like a religious leader held back some of Joseph's darker impulses, although it did not restrain his seductions or solicitations to murder others, I imagine it did temper its frequency.

[Shulem]

You testify of the man and write all about him which I have yet to read, but do you have an opinion on his dark side and just how far he would have taken his ambitions to achieve his goals?

Chris Smith thought the expectation to behave like a religious leader held back some of Joseph's darker impulses, although it did not restrain his seductions or solicitations to murder others, I imagine it did temper its frequency.

It sounds like Chris Smith is of the opinion that Joseph Smith was capable of committing murder whether by his own device or ordering others to do his dirty work. I am of the opinion that Joseph Smith was very capable of committing murder and had he continued his ministry in Nauvoo, there is no telling what might have happened. All of this speculation, of course, but good speculation for sure.

[Moksha]

All of this speculation, of course, but good speculation for sure.

Here is some connecting information by Chris presented at a Sunstone Symposia:

https://sunstone.org/wp-content/uploads ... h2015.mp3

[Res Ipsa]

Shulem, this was new information for me. The timeline of events laid out in the JSP comments plus Booths account combine for pretty strong evidence that Smith was forced to improvise by events that even God was unable to foresee. Thanks for teaching me something new.

[Shulem]

Shulem, this was new information for me. The timeline of events laid out in the JSP comments plus Booths account combine for pretty strong evidence that Smith was forced to improvise by events that even God was unable to foresee. Thanks for teaching me something new.

It was considered divine revelation from the moment the Spirit ® revealed the revelation to the prophet who drafted it upon paper via his scribe, John Whitmer. It was a revelation from God and by God. But the prophecy failed! Smith covered his tracks and changed the original revelation because he was unable to fulfil the mandate and feared the saints would disapprove. Ezra Booth took exception to the change and coverup in pointing out how Smith was cheating the revelations and proved the prophecies were manmade and not of God. His objections and suspicions were justified and spot on.

Thank you, Ezra Booth for your honesty!

But Joseph Smith was a cheater and a liar. This example serves as absolute proof that cannot be dismissed or justified by apologists. Smith was wrong about the city being built in Indian territory as he was also wrong about a king's name in the writing of Facsimile No. 3.

[Shulem]

Booth was disappointed because he witnessed firsthand how Mormonism was not measuring up to the claims Smith was making as a prophet. The change in the location of Zion was one such anomaly that he couldn't wrap his head around and justify. He witnessed firsthand how Smith was making stuff up and changing things when his plans didn't go right. But all that was supposed to be revelations and the revelations were contradicting each other. There was no sure word of prophecy! We are informed in scripture (Rev 19:10) that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, therefore, Smith failed on both accounts and was a lying hypocrite.

In the end, Smith kicked Booth out and turned on him. He knew his prophecy had failed and yet he penciled in a new one to cover his failure. Booth couldn't accept that. Booth was an honest man and Smith was not. So, Smith in his vindictive ways accused Booth and had the audacity to say that Booth didn't have the Spirit! How ironic.

Behold, I, the Lord, was angry with him who was my servant Ezra Booth, and also my servant Isaac Morley, for they kept not the law, neither the commandment; They sought  evil in their hearts, and I, the Lord, withheld my Spirit.

But in reality, it was Smith who kept not the law, neither the commandments. His city was not built in Indian territory and neither was a temple built in Jackson County. And, there is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3!

F-you, John Gee!

[Shulem]

Under these circumstances he [Ezra Booth] apostatized. While he was in apostasy he searched his cranium for some means to justify himself and published a series of lying letters in the Ohio Star, in the Revenna. These nine letters had been republished several times as evidence against "Mormonism;" and his apostasy culminated in collecting a mob who tarred and feathered Joseph Smith...

The report of how Smith changed the location of Zion is an accurate statement in showing by evidence that Smith's original prophecy was false and there was a Church coverup. Booth's testimonial in that regard can hardly be construed as lying! Evidently the Mormons were sour about it and angry with Booth for exposing the false prophecy and bringing it into sharp focus in the public arena. So, their response was to simply call Booth a liar and claim he was making stuff up out of his own head because he was an evil apostate.

But the truth is, Booth told the truth. Smith and later the Brighamites accused Booth of lying and continued to support Smith's false prophecy that never came to fruition then or now. It was all a false prophecy! Zion was not built and Jesus failed to return.

In truth, it's the Mormons who are liars. I bear testimony that I know the Church is not true. I absolutely KNOW it.