Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

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MG 2.0
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by MG 2.0 »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:43 pm
I do not think Joseph would have been able to read the plates (if there were such things with the story written on them) by looking at the plates any better than he would have been by looking at a rock. His ability would be the same zero either way. I do not understand why people get worried about him looking at a rock instead of the plates, well different people get there maybe I should question this button pressed by different things. Even so I am sure all Mormon believers think that only the power of God supplied the translation not Joseph.
This has been discussed at length recently:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158043&start=40

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MG
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:04 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:06 pm


Are you referring to the part where he analogized "same sex attraction" to other challenges people face in life?
I’m referring to this…
He said: "Some people have physical limitations, they may be born with a body that is not fully functional."

Mr Bednar likened this to having “an inclination to be attracted to someone of the same sex”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 07146.html
OK. Do you think people with disabilities are defined by their disabilities? Do you think they are defective people? Do you think being born with a disability is a sin?

If you said no to all three, then congratulations: you agree with Bednar.

To actually understand an analogy, one must do more than the article's author did, and must understand what the person making the analogy thinks the pieces of the analogy has in common.

Or you can do it Binger-style: find an interpretation that outrages you and insist that your interpretation is what the speaker intended.
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:32 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:04 pm
I’m referring to this…

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 07146.html
OK. Do you think people with disabilities are defined by their disabilities? Do you think they are defective people? Do you think being born with a disability is a sin?

If you said no to all three, then congratulations: you agree with Bednar.

To actually understand an analogy, one must do more than the article's author did, and must understand what the person making the analogy thinks the pieces of the analogy has in common.
Res Ipsa, we have disagreed on many things. But I think the position you are taking in this particular instance shows a greater degree of analysis and openness to what others might actually be saying rather than simply putting words into someone’s mouth.

Something to keep in mind even as we communicate with others on this board.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

Here is a part of the transcript
Some people have physical limitations: They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
http://www.mormonthink.com/responses/be ... exuals.htm
Bednar is stating that one of many possible "physical limitations" is "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex." And, paired with his first example, he seems to be implying that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex" is similar to or on the same level as, being "born with a body that is not fully functional".

Has Bednar has stated that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the opposite sex" is also an example of possible "physical limitations," and could be paired with the example of being "born with a body that is not fully functional" ?

Also, on a different note, this from the transcript is disturbing.
[Picks up water bottle and holds above his head]

This is a bottle of water. It's an object. It has no capacity to act. It is an object that can only be acted upon. So this object moves if I cause it to move, or if some other force causes it to move. My wife is afraid I'm going to hit her with the bottle of water.
[bolding added.]
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Bond wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:01 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:32 pm
Thing is, at this point in time, even if they still think or believe that, it's gotta be plausible deniability. Why? Just look at the membership #'s... 16 million of which only 8 million are active. That is .0001% of the entire population of the planet, in other words, in the last 203 years since 'restoring' his 'one true church', the best God has done is 1 in 10,000 on planet earth converted to his 'one and only church'??? That is big time inefficieny, to say the least. Meanwhile, there are 1.5 billion catholics which comprises 21% of earth's population. But they're all members of the wrong religion??? I guess God really is working in mysterious ways. And how do these men, who are former doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. who are supposed to be quite bright, actually believe that Smith crated divine scriptue by looking at a rock (that he used to scam people during his money-digging years) in a hat and telling a story with no gold plates used in the process??? I'll tell you... they want to believe... they need to believe... to maintain their celebrity status and all the financial perks that come with being a GA, not to mention their wives, kids, grandkids, great grandkids, etc. all benefiting financially for decades to come! :lol: :x
That activity rate is probably more like 3-4 million with half of them on their phones scrolling.
Haha, probably. Make that .00005%. ;) :lol:
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by I Have Questions »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:31 pm
Here is a part of the transcript
Some people have physical limitations: They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
http://www.mormonthink.com/responses/be ... exuals.htm
Bednar is stating that one of many possible "physical limitations" is "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex." And, paired with his first example, he seems to be implying that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex" is similar to or on the same level as, being "born with a body that is not fully functional".

Has Bednar has stated that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the opposite sex" is also an example of possible "physical limitations," and could be paired with the example of being "born with a body that is not fully functional" ?
That’s my take on it.
Also, on a different note, this from the transcript is disturbing.
[Picks up water bottle and holds above his head]

This is a bottle of water. It's an object. It has no capacity to act. It is an object that can only be acted upon. So this object moves if I cause it to move, or if some other force causes it to move. My wife is afraid I'm going to hit her with the bottle of water.
[bolding added.]
A confession, perhaps?
1. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. The best evidence for The Book of Mormon is eye witness testimony, therefore… 3.The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a type of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:31 pm
Here is a part of the transcript
Some people have physical limitations: They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
http://www.mormonthink.com/responses/be ... exuals.htm
Bednar is stating that one of many possible "physical limitations" is "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex." And, paired with his first example, he seems to be implying that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex" is similar to or on the same level as, being "born with a body that is not fully functional".

Has Bednar has stated that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the opposite sex" is also an example of possible "physical limitations," and could be paired with the example of being "born with a body that is not fully functional" ?

Also, on a different note, this from the transcript is disturbing.
[Picks up water bottle and holds above his head]

This is a bottle of water. It's an object. It has no capacity to act. It is an object that can only be acted upon. So this object moves if I cause it to move, or if some other force causes it to move. My wife is afraid I'm going to hit her with the bottle of water.
[bolding added.]
No that's not what he's saying at all, if you listen to the entire answer. You are placing a nonsensical interpretation on his words by combing snippets out of context. His argument is not that "same sex attraction" [for clarity, those are scare quotes] is a subset of the class of "physical limitations" -- it's that both SSA and physical limitations are a subset of the class of challenges that people face in their lives.

Mormonthink presents the entire text of the answer, in which the argument he is making is clear. Here is the argument:
We are sons and daughters of God and all of us have different challenges in the flesh. There are many different types of challenges. Would it be a challenge to be very beautiful or very handsome, and in the world in which we live, never develop deep character because we are able to open doors and have success just because of our physical appearance? And we become shallow and superficial in many aspects of our lives.

That can be a challenge in the flesh.

Some people have physical limitations: They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
His answer is being translated into Spanish as he gives it. So, what we actually hear in the part you are focussing on is:
some people have physical limitations [pause for translation] they may be born with a body that is not fully functional [pause for translation] or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
Watching the clip and listening to his voice, I think it's pretty clear that the last clause is summing up his point that "all of us have different challenges in the flesh." In the next sentence, he changes the subject to free agency.

The transcript was from somebody on Reddit. That somebody had to make decisions about how to turn what was said into a transcript with sentences, punctuation and grammar. Regardless of those choices, reading the entire argument shows that Bednar was giving examples of what he described as "challenges in the flesh."

He returns to this argument later by explaining why he rejected the question he was asked:
So, the reason I began my answer as I did, is that in this question, the word "homosexual" was used to describe or label a member of the Church. It's an inaccurate label. We are sons and daughter of God and we determine how to respond to the variety of challenges we experience in mortality through the proper exercise of our moral agency.
That's the argument, and nothing in it has anything to do with equating SSA as a "physical limitation." Note that he also analogizes SSA to being physically attractive. He sees both as presenting "challenges in the flesh."

That's not to say that his argument is valid or strong. But if you purport to be attacking what he is saying, it is important to first understand what he actually is saying and not something else.

No, Bednar has not described OSA as a "physical limitation." He hasn't done that with SSA either.

As to the last, again, you have to watch the video. His wife is sitting next to him. When he talks about moving the water bottle, he kind of waves it around. He tried to insert a joke about waving the bottle around that (in my opinion) didn't land. You can watch his wife when he's moving the bottle around. She doesn't flinch or look concerned that he's going to hit her. They do have a moment of eye contact, as if she had said on an earlier occasion: hey, watch it when you wave that bottle around. I dunno. The audience laughed. She played it up, pretending to take cover after he said it.
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:31 pm
Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 7:31 pm
Here is a part of the transcript
Bednar is stating that one of many possible "physical limitations" is "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex." And, paired with his first example, he seems to be implying that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex" is similar to or on the same level as, being "born with a body that is not fully functional".

Has Bednar has stated that "an inclination to be attracted to those of the opposite sex" is also an example of possible "physical limitations," and could be paired with the example of being "born with a body that is not fully functional" ?
That’s my take on it.
Also, on a different note, this from the transcript is disturbing.
[bolding added.]
A confession, perhaps?
Of course that's your take. It's only the gazilionth time you've tried to put the worse possible spin you can think of on something that an LDS leader said.

Insinuating that Bednar's attempts joke has anything to do with physically abusing his wife is reprehensible.
he/him
When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig’d to call for the help of the Civil Power, ’tis a Sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.

Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by I Have Questions »

We are sons and daughters of God and all of us have different challenges in the flesh. There are many different types of challenges. Would it be a challenge to be very beautiful or very handsome, and in the world in which we live, never develop deep character because we are able to open doors and have success just because of our physical appearance? And we become shallow and superficial in many aspects of our lives.

That can be a challenge in the flesh.

Some people have physical limitations: They may be born with a body that is not fully functional, or we may have an inclination to be attracted to those of the same sex.
It couldn’t be any clearer than that.
1. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. The best evidence for The Book of Mormon is eye witness testimony, therefore… 3.The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a type of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by I Have Questions »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:35 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:31 pm
That’s my take on it.

A confession, perhaps?
Of course that's your take. It's only the gazilionth time you've tried to put the worse possible spin you can think of on something that an LDS leader said.

Insinuating that Bednar's attempts joke has anything to do with physically abusing his wife is reprehensible.
Insinuating that same sex attraction is like unto a physical disability is reprehensible.
1. Eye witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. 2. The best evidence for The Book of Mormon is eye witness testimony, therefore… 3.The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is a type of evidence that is notoriously unreliable.
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