Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

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Marcus
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Marcus »

Carmack's latest post is interesting:
Overall, those who entertain secular notions with regard to the Book of Mormon are quite credulous, in a number of ways. They are protected in their credulity by academic priorities.

Here is just one of many ways they are credulous with regard to Book of Mormon English usage.

American English speakers and writers preferred except to save; the Book of Mormon has mostly save, which is a rare thing among texts with large numbers of except.

AmE native speakers employed these two words as prepositions almost all the time; the Book of Mormon as conjunctions almost all the time.

Historically speaking, the conjunction save was used as a coordinator most of the time; in the Book of Mormon, as a subordinator almost all the time.

Conjunctive use was almost always "save that S"; in the Book of Mormon, almost always "save S."

Overall, the Book of Mormon's save usage is unique textually. It is archaic in formation, and very frequently marked for the subjunctive mood, both synthetically and analytically.

For the credulous, Joseph Smith generated the above as a matter of routine pseudo-archaism, even though there is no support for the above Book of Mormon usage among any pseudo-archaic text. (The above is also very different from biblical usage.)

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/11 ... 1210269158
So, Carmack assumes that "the credulous" think Smith's Book of Mormon was the outcome of his 'routine pseudo-archaic' efforts. He goes on to define 'routine pseudo-archaism' as being equivalent to the average of 25 published pseudo-archaic texts, a set he picked. He's also indicated at least some of these pseudo-archaic authors were better educated than Smith.

In the end, he assumes that unless Smith's works are close to the average of these 25 texts in terms of percent usage of archaisms, he was not trying to be archaic. That's just a bad statistical approach, long before we get to his other assumptions.
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Gabriel »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2026 7:10 pm
Carmack's latest post is interesting:

So, Carmack assumes that "the credulous" think Smith's Book of Mormon was the outcome of his 'routine pseudo-archaic' efforts. He goes on to define 'routine pseudo-archaism' as being equivalent to the average of 25 published pseudo-archaic texts, a set he picked. He's also indicated at least some of these pseudo-archaic authors were better educated than Smith.

In the end, he assumes that unless Smith's works are close to the average of these 25 texts in terms of percent usage of archaisms, he was not trying to be archaic. That's just a bad statistical approach, long before we get to his other assumptions.
Usually, it only takes ten minutes to find a Texas Bullseye, fifteen minutes max. Carmack's has got to be the most slippery Texas Bullseye in the entire history of Mopologetics. I will refrain from commenting now, but the following is the raw data that I've gleaned from the 1841 Book of Mormon:

Translator A:

Lost 116 pages

(Unknown number of “if it so be”)

Mosiah

Chapter 7
But I finish my message; and then it matters not whither I go, if it so be that I am saved.

Alma

Chapter 25
…but if it so be that there is such a being…
…and if it so be that there is a devil and a hell…


Translator B:

3 Nephi

Chapter 7
…that if it so be that my people at Jerusalem…
…and if it so be that they come unto you oft…

Chapter 8
…and if it so be that he repenteth…

Chapter 12
And if it so be that they will not believe…
…if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.
…and if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel…

4 Nephi

Chapter 3
…and if it so be that ye are righteous…
…if it so be that God may give unto them my words…
… and if it so be that ye believe in Christ and are baptized…

Ether

Chapter 1
And if it so be, let us be faithful…
And if it so be that the water come in upon thee…
…and if it so be that I do not speak…

Chapter 2
And if it so be that they repent…

Chapter 6
…whether the Lord will that I be translated…it mattereth not, if it so be that I am saved...

Chapter 9
…and if it so be that they perish…

1 Nephi

Chapter 1
And if it so be that they rebel against me…

Chapter 2
…if it so be that that they exercise faith in him…
And if it so be that we are faithful to him…

Chapter 3
…if it so be that they repent and come unto him…
…if it so be that they harden their hearts

Chapter 5
And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments…
…if it so be that ye shall keep my commandments…
…if it so be that they should obtain these things.

Chapter 7
…even if it so be that the fullness of his wrath must come…
…even if it so be as by fire.
…if it so be that they will harden their hearts…
…if it so be that they will repent…

2 Nephi

Chapter 1
And if it so be that they shall serve…
And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments…

Chapter 2
…if it so be that ye shall keep the commandments…

Chapter 5
…if it so be that they shall repent…

Chapter 12
…even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire.

Jacob

Chapter 3
…and it mattereth not that if it so be that the root of this tree…
…and if it so be that these last grafts shall grow…

Enos

…even if it so be by the power of his holy arm…
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

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Marcus wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2026 7:10 pm
Carmack's latest post is interesting:
Overall, those who entertain secular notions with regard to the Book of Mormon are quite credulous, in a number of ways. They are protected in their credulity by academic priorities.

Here is just one of many ways they are credulous with regard to Book of Mormon English usage.

American English speakers and writers preferred except to save; the Book of Mormon has mostly save, which is a rare thing among texts with large numbers of except.

AmE native speakers employed these two words as prepositions almost all the time; the Book of Mormon as conjunctions almost all the time.

Historically speaking, the conjunction save was used as a coordinator most of the time; in the Book of Mormon, as a subordinator almost all the time.

Conjunctive use was almost always "save that S"; in the Book of Mormon, almost always "save S."

Overall, the Book of Mormon's save usage is unique textually. It is archaic in formation, and very frequently marked for the subjunctive mood, both synthetically and analytically.

For the credulous, Joseph Smith generated the above as a matter of routine pseudo-archaism, even though there is no support for the above Book of Mormon usage among any pseudo-archaic text. (The above is also very different from biblical usage.)

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/11 ... 1210269158
So, Carmack assumes that "the credulous" think Smith's Book of Mormon was the outcome of his 'routine pseudo-archaic' efforts. He goes on to define 'routine pseudo-archaism' as being equivalent to the average of 25 published pseudo-archaic texts, a set he picked. He's also indicated at least some of these pseudo-archaic authors were better educated than Smith.

In the end, he assumes that unless Smith's works are close to the average of these 25 texts in terms of percent usage of archaisms, he was not trying to be archaic. That's just a bad statistical approach, long before we get to his other assumptions.

What was Mormon God’s motivation for putting Early Modern English into Joseph Smith’s translation? Let’s grant that it’s true - was it put there simply to service Mormon apologetics in the 21st century?

It’s either a sign that Mormon God is a trickster, or a sign that you can over-analyze any non trivial text to death such that you end up finding bizarre correlations like this.

It’s all incredibly silly.
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Gadianton »

Equality wrote:Is Carmack arguing that "if it so be" is archaic but "if it be so" is not?
I *think* he's saying "if it so be" is archaic by 16th century standards, and "if so be" is normal by 16th century standards, such as it's found in the KJV. I don't know about "if it be so".
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Gadianton »

Marcus wrote:He argues that 25 of 30 shifts are to more archaic language, the other 5 to less archaic.

Additionally, not all the 'shifting' to a different voice occurred at the same place:
When you say it, it sounds bad. In the way I'm thinking about it, that means "Author B" isn't coming through with a clean signal. But reading your last link, it sounds like he's looking at it totally differently than I am. Let me quote another part of the post you referenced:
Carmack wrote:That means that while he was in Pennsylvania, he consciously decided to dictate more archaically, in at least 25 ways, although there are a few exceptions where he dictated less archaically and where he dictated rare archaism
I read this as saying the "fuzzy signal" is a feature: Explain to me how he consciously dictated more archaically in 25 different ways, and if you can manage that, explain how he then dictated less archaically in five different ways, oh, and and at the same time, add a super rare archaism to the list.

I interpret that as: Explain to me how Joseph consciously put 25 bullets within the first couple of rings outside the bullseye of the target, and then put 5 bullets between the two outer rings of the target, and then one bullet off the target completely and into a wagon wheel propped up against the other end of the barn wall?
This really complicates the number of 'voices' involved in the shifting. It gives new meaning to the idea that it's difficult to get a committee to do anything that is coherent and cohesive.
I originally laughed at this as a caricature, but, isn't this what he's saying? It would be "harder", for instance, to start all those shifts at exactly the spots he started them rather than all at the same transition spot?
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Gadianton »

Gabriel, I'd say the bolded lines erase any temptation to think there is an A and a B based on proportions.
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Marcus »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2026 10:47 pm
Equality wrote:Is Carmack arguing that "if it so be" is archaic but "if it be so" is not?
I *think* he's saying "if it so be" is archaic by 16th century standards, and "if so be" is normal by 16th century standards, such as it's found in the KJV. I don't know about "if it be so".
Good question--it's getting to the point that some stuff, according to Carmack, is found in Late Middle English, some in Early Modern English, and some in literally no time period on the planet. Joseph Smith is apparently unique beyond all humankind. Oh, but his 'translation' is not pseudo-archaic, because his relative frequency of bits of phrases of non-modern English usage relative to modern English usage isn't the same frequency as the average of 25 authors who published pseudo-archaic texts. Note he has never justified the assumption that in order to be influenced by a source, you must use grammar, syntax, words and phrases with the same relative frequency as that source does.
Last edited by Marcus on Wed Apr 15, 2026 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Marcus »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2026 11:35 pm
Marcus wrote:He argues that 25 of 30 shifts are to more archaic language, the other 5 to less archaic.

Additionally, not all the 'shifting' to a different voice occurred at the same place:
When you say it, it sounds bad. In the way I'm thinking about it, that means "Author B" isn't coming through with a clean signal. But reading your last link, it sounds like he's looking at it totally differently than I am. Let me quote another part of the post you referenced:
Carmack wrote:That means that while he was in Pennsylvania, he consciously decided to dictate more archaically, in at least 25 ways, although there are a few exceptions where he dictated less archaically and where he dictated rare archaism
I read this as saying the "fuzzy signal" is a feature: Explain to me how he consciously dictated more archaically in 25 different ways, and if you can manage that, explain how he then dictated less archaically in five different ways, oh, and and at the same time, add a super rare archaism to the list.

I interpret that as: Explain to me how Joseph consciously put 25 bullets within the first couple of rings outside the bullseye of the target, and then put 5 bullets between the two outer rings of the target, and then one bullet off the target completely and into a wagon wheel propped up against the other end of the barn wall?
Well, if that's what was observed as having happened before anyone else started analyzing, then it's a given that it happened. Whether it can be easily explained or not, it still happened.

But that brings up another problem. Did it really happen? I don't think he is accurately stating what is there, and I think he regularly tweaks his groups of observations to fit his assessments. Every time I've tried to follow his analysis it turns into a tangled mess that, in my opinion, does not support his conclusions.

For example, he went to considerable effort to explain the B of M variations of this:

"of (which/whom) (it) (has/hath/have) been spoken."

After much discussion about how he can't really find these anywhere, he settles upon

"of whom it hath been spoken,"

and notes that even though Smith actually changed it to "it has," it was originally "it hath."

He then notes he found 5 examples of that exact phrase including "it hath", in Early Modern English, and no where else.(except for one matching Smith's use of "has" that he found in a 1832 text, but only one, so he discounts it. Why? Who knows. He just does.)

He then uses his 5 examples (but not the contemporary one he found) to suggest that his findings imply that this 'phraseology' (his word) is Early Modern English, which was not in Smith's repertoire, because he only used it here, in these ten variations.

Here's the problem. I looked up the original page in the Joseph Smith papers, and "it hath" is actually NOT PHYSICALLY THERE because the page is torn away. "it hath" is written into the transcript by someone, and it's documented that someone, (I think Smith?) corrected the missing "it hath" to "it has."

Not only that, but Smith used this exact phrasing in 1) the preface of the B of M, AND in 2) D &C 10, AND in 3) BOTH witness statements. Carmack discounts these by saying "it's derivative," and that the D&C wording doesn't count because that was a divine revelation, not Smith. Which he assumes without proof.

He also ignores any phrases such as "of which it hath/had/has been said/given/etc because they don't use "SPOKEN." Although he did find the phrase with "spok'n". Also with "mentioned" but he's ruled that out. Also for reasons.

You see what I mean? Every example I have followed ends this way.
Gad wrote:
This really complicates the number of 'voices' involved in the shifting. It gives new meaning to the idea that it's difficult to get a committee to do anything that is coherent and cohesive.
I originally laughed at this as a caricature, but, isn't this what he's saying? It would be "harder", for instance, to start all those shifts at exactly the spots he started them rather than all at the same transition spot?
I would agree, it would be harder! However, he uses his assessment to argue not only that Smith couldn't have done it, but that another person or persons did do it that way. So, either one person did it and has the same schizophrenic stop and starting as Smith, or multiples did it, also with odd stops and starts. I think he thinks the latter, and just glides over the contradictions:
Carmack wrote: ...It seems reasonable to me to reject that he was able to control 30+ linguistic features in this way. So it seems reasonable to me that they were part of an English-language translation that was delivered to him (2n2724)...
Edited March 9 by champatsch

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/11 ... om/page/6/
in my opinion, that reads as though he thinks somebody was responsible for those features, and he is just backing it up into the supernatural, because the delivered translation also contains these oddities. Someone had to put them in there, he just doesn't want it to be the human, Smith, so he puts the onus on his supernatural committee.

It's still turtles all the way down, though. in my opinion.
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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Equality »

Yeah, the reason I asked about whether Carmack was making a distinction between "if it be so" and "if it so be" is that The Late War by Gilbert J. Hunt, from which Joseph Smith plagiarized pretty heavily in fabricating the Book of Mormon, uses the phrase "if it be so." The Late War, Chapter 22:15, page 103

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Re: Carmack's current position on Book of Mormon authorship

Post by Limnor »

A simpler explanation is that he was reaching for ancient sounding language but applied the method inconsistently, which is what you could expect in a long dictated text influenced by several sources.
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