Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

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dastardly stem
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by dastardly stem »

Sledge wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:39 am


Nope. But written by people with people mistakes and such.
So we're back to each person having to wonder what is inspired and what is not? Well David and Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives and concubines in some cases so it must be good to do. God instructed people to murder maim and rape, so that can be good too.

If each person were willing to use reason to determine the usefulness of which scripture is good and which is not, then there is little reason for scripture (since any worthwhile lesson found therein can be found anywhere) and less reason for revelation. If in so changing the church became a secular organization determined to get people to determine things like morality in a reason and observation way, then perhaps it becomes something that starts helping rather than confusing people and hindering progress.

Calling scripture fiction but true doesn't address the problems. And it introduces a new one--what could fiction but true even mean when it comes to what scripture says? "well, it's true because there never really was a Jesus who took on the sins of mankind to satisfy an angry God, but we still have to love God first, even though there is no God...because it's all fiction even though it's true".

Also, thinking scripture is inspired by God but has many errors of man makes it a useless tool. Pretty telling since most believers these days think it is inspired by God but contains many errors of man--and it may be most believers, if we summed up what the errors and truths into separate lists, would find there are more errors then useful nuggets. I suppose that's why people generally treat scripture as mostly useless with somewhere around 5% of it being quotable passages, some of which don't seem to mean very much anyway.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:06 pm
So we're back to each person having to wonder what is inspired and what is not? Well David and Abraham and Jacob had multiple wives and concubines in some cases so it must be good to do. God instructed people to murder maim and rape, so that can be good too.
Just a couple of thoughts. If all that we had were two literary genres - one involving inspired (or true) writing and the other being fiction, then this thread might make more sense. But we don't have just two literary genres. And while there are people who tend to read in this way (that if its not historical then it must be fictional), we don't always read in this way (and we certainly don't always write in this way). Perhaps we could have a more interesting discussion about the novel: Thus Spoke Zarathustra in the same terms. Is it supposed to be read in the same way that you might read a Lee Child novel (and if so, why doesn't anyone really read it that way)? Can a person recognize that parts of the Bible are not historical (in the sense that it doesn't reflect a real history) and still find it to be a spiritually motivating text?

The point is this, even if the Book of Mormon is fiction in the sense that it is about people who never existed doing things that never happened, is the text also a discussion about the way in which we read (and write) scripture, theories of salvation, commentary on creation, death and resurrection, and so on. And if it is, does this mean that it doesn't exactly match our modern genre of fiction? And let's be honest .... like Nietzsche's novel, I doubt that anyone is ever going to simply read the Book of Mormon to enjoy it as a work of fiction ....
Also, thinking scripture is inspired by God but has many errors of man makes it a useless tool. Pretty telling since most believers these days think it is inspired by God but contains many errors of man--and it may be most believers, if we summed up what the errors and truths into separate lists, would find there are more errors then useful nuggets. I suppose that's why people generally treat scripture as mostly useless with somewhere around 5% of it being quotable passages, some of which don't seem to mean very much anyway.
You might consider something I wrote as part of my essay on reading Nephi:
The narrative unit in which this vision occurs begins with Lehi’s having a dream and sharing it with his family. Following that dream, two responses are presented. One is the response of Nephi and the other comes from his brothers Laman and Lemuel. ... The two approaches deal with discovering meaning in the vision. In the first potential response to the vision, Nephi goes to the source and asks to receive this vision for himself. Laman and Lemuel on the other hand take a more traditional approach and argue with each other over what the vision that their father had described meant. After the failure of the second approach, a third is offered, with Nephi (who has now seen the vision and can be considered its oracle) explaining it to his brothers. It is in his explanation that we see an admission of the unreliable narrator:
And they said unto me: What meaneth the river of water which our father saw? And I said unto them that the water which my father saw was filthiness; and so much was his mind swallowed up in other things that he beheld not the filthiness of the water. (1 Nephi 15:26–27)
True to the words of the Spirit, Nephi is shown the same thing that his father saw. But, as Nephi tells us with his pervasive language of looking and seeing, the vision is something that is experienced. Lehi missed some details of the vision that Nephi saw because he was paying attention elsewhere. Lehi then (apparently) could not answer Laman and Lemuel’s question about the river. What Nephi does not tell us explicitly is that while his mind was swallowed up looking at the river of filthy water, he inevitably missed some details that his father saw.

Seen in this way, this revelation by vision is a personal experience. Since we are all different people, our interactions will not conform to some universal standard — our individual experience of the vision will be different from everyone else’s. While we may have greater overlap with those who share our backgrounds and knowledge, the experience may be quite different when compared with those who don’t. The narrator can only provide us with the details that he is aware of. He cannot give us the details of his father’s vision that he missed. And he certainly cannot provide us with a reasonable telling of the vision as we might experience it.

The inclusion of this narrative of the vision within Nephi’s book, along with an interpretation, isn’t an invitation to stop. In fact, in following Nephi’s explanation, if we stop with his text, we have in fact become no better than Laman or Lemuel asking Nephi for meaning (or, since we really cannot ask a text anything, we are left to dispute one with another as to its meaning). Even if we look to authoritative sources for interpretations (including the interpretation provided by Nephi himself), we are left with something that is best used only if the “Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.”

The underlying message is that only in receiving the vision for ourselves can we approach the revelation of God. Only in our experience can we find greater understanding (even while we recognize that our own vision may be different and potentially even contradictory to what others have seen). Nephi cannot give us the vision; he can only reflect on its meaning and interpret it for us.

What is the tension that we see? Nephi is both providing us with a text that is true, based on his experiences — the things which he saw and heard — and yet at the same time, at least from a postmodernist perspective, Nephi is undermining the authority and the value of his experience as truth: namely, he cannot present us with his vision and he cannot give us his experience. What he does give us is woefully incomplete and potentially misunderstood and misinterpreted by those who do not seek the revelation for themselves (either by pursuing the vision as Nephi did or by reading with the Spirit as Nephi later explains). From a postmodernist perspective, Nephi unveils himself as the unreliable narrator as he begins to dismantle the assumptions he brought with him as he began his text.
In a way, there is something ironic in all of this if you look at the LDS Sunday School manual for this part of the Book of Mormon. It is filled with 'authoritative' explanations of the symbolism of the vision. All of which completely misses the point of the vision itself - and the Book of Mormon's narrative which undermines the value of those authoritative explanations. In contrast to the Book of Mormon's narrative, the Sunday School manual offers us a view of an inerrant (perfect) text which just needs to be understood appropriately. From my perspective, Dastardly Stem, an inerrant, perfectly inspired text, is in reality no different from any other text. We are still left with all of these same questions - except that there are no answers. Except in some ways, its even worse. Because with an inerrant text, is it really appropriate to question the text's meaning? Isn't it supposed to be self-revealing? And aren't we supposed to listen to those authoritative voices who can explain exactly what it means? As Socrates notes in Plato's Phaedrus:
You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. The painter’s products stand before us as though they were alive. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words. They seem to talk to you as though they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say from a desire to be instructed they go on telling just the same thing forever.
I think that while the either/or issue of the Book of Mormon as fiction/historical may be useful in discussing the text as an artifact, it isn't helpful in discussing the way that we read it, the meaning of the text as we read it, or the ways in which it can be meaningful to us in an extra-textual way. Maybe that's just me ...
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

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Sledge wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:47 pm
Let us suppose that, hypothetically, the church publishes a new proclamation that states the Books of Mormon, Abraham and Moses are all inspired, prophetic, and true--but they're fiction. Included in this proclamation is also a statement that the Old Testament is inspired fiction.

Does that solve all y'all's problems? See you in church on Sunday?
I think it’d place another hurdle regarding either the reliability of the modern-day prophets because of their preceding representations of the Mormon scriptures, or a hurdle in why such a trickster god is worthy of devotion.

That's assuming one has made it over the myriad of other hurdles to even reach Mormonism.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

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Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 pm
I think that while the either/or issue of the Book of Mormon as fiction/historical may be useful in discussing the text as an artifact, it isn't helpful … in which it can be meaningful to us in an extra-textual way. Maybe that's just me ...
Great post as always. That bit tripped me up, though. I can’t wrap my mind around how a book being a work of fiction isn’t meaningful in an ‘extra-textual’ way. It’s literally the foundation upon which the book itself is premised, whether or not the events are real, and how that relates to the reader. If a non-fiction book turns out to be fictional, see: A Million Little Pieces, it radically alters our relationship with the world it built, and the lessons it attempts to impart. Sure, one can still get some warm fuzzies if one is willing to ignore the Lie, but the Lie persists, inevitably and constantly, in the background of our consciousness.

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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by Lem »

Sledge wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:47 pm
Let us suppose that, hypothetically, the church publishes a new proclamation that states the Books of Mormon, Abraham and Moses are all inspired, prophetic, and true--but they're fiction. Included in this proclamation is also a statement that the Old Testament is inspired fiction.

Does that solve all y'all's problems? See you in church on Sunday?
This is such a bizarre question to me. If the LDS church proclaimed now that the Book of Mormon et al were fiction, this would mean Smith was either a con or massively deluded, and all of the resulting apologetic attempts to prove historicity were wrong. Even worse, it would leave a religion that still has massive issues regarding how various groups of people are treated. A religion, by the way, with closing in on half a trillion dollars hoarded, collected under threat of eternal failure on the backs of many, many good people who believed and sacrificed everything for this fakery. That is despicable. So, no. Declaring what the rest of the world already knows, that the Mormon religion is based on a fraud, wouldn’t be a reason to subject oneself to such a cult again.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by Dr Exiled »

Lem wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:45 pm
Sledge wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:47 pm
Let us suppose that, hypothetically, the church publishes a new proclamation that states the Books of Mormon, Abraham and Moses are all inspired, prophetic, and true--but they're fiction. Included in this proclamation is also a statement that the Old Testament is inspired fiction.

Does that solve all y'all's problems? See you in church on Sunday?
This is such a bizarre question to me. If the LDS church proclaimed now that the Book of Mormon et al were fiction, this would mean Smith was either a con or massively deluded, and all of the resulting apologetic attempts to prove historicity were wrong. Even worse, it would leave a religion that still has massive issues regarding how various groups of people are treated. A religion, by the way, with closing in on half a trillion dollars hoarded, collected under threat of eternal failure on the backs of many, many good people who believed and sacrificed everything for this fakery. That is despicable. So, no. Declaring what the rest of the world already knows, that the Mormon religion is based on a fraud, wouldn’t be a reason to subject oneself to such a cult again.
I agree with this. The authority falls if historicity isn't maintained and this is why the apologists make fools of themselves trying to keep hope alive.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by dastardly stem »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 pm
Just a couple of thoughts. If all that we had were two literary genres - one involving inspired (or true) writing and the other being fiction, then this thread might make more sense. But we don't have just two literary genres. And while there are people who tend to read in this way (that if its not historical then it must be fictional), we don't always read in this way (and we certainly don't always write in this way). Perhaps we could have a more interesting discussion about the novel: Thus Spoke Zarathustra in the same terms. Is it supposed to be read in the same way that you might read a Lee Child novel (and if so, why doesn't anyone really read it that way)? Can a person recognize that parts of the Bible are not historical (in the sense that it doesn't reflect a real history) and still find it to be a spiritually motivating text?
That is the question. Call me skeptical, but how does one determine "parts of the Bible are not historical" compared to other parts that may be historical? Or perhaps more to the point, how does one decide which parts are inspired, as in describing God's real interactions with humans, vs parts that are man inspired? For instance, it seems to be the case, to me anyway, that most believers completely ignore Jesus' teaching concluding the sermon on the mount wherein Jesus suggests many believers get ignored by God and himself, during their lives which includes their prayers and such, by suggesting things like "God loves you" and "God hears prayers". Apparently He doesn't love many believers and ignores many prayers. But, as it happens, that sounds bad, I guess, so to believers, it seems, it must not be true.

One could pick at Jesus' teaching and suggest something about how he didn't really mean what is said. Or one could try to pull in other ideas like He really only meant that many believers are kind of bad people and he can tell who they are from the start and since he knows that, He doesn't really consider Himself covenanted or tied to them. But of course, that is not what is said.

The odd thing about trying to really dig into what might something really mean, as opposed to what it says, is believers are left to try and use reason and intellect to determine what is good, as opposed to revelation, scripture or God. I mean it's encouraging most believers tend to reject most of scripture, on that basis of people embracing enlightenment ideals and replacing them with scripture. But it's a problem that such a thing never seems to get acknowledged. And, of course, doing so, again, only shows the uselessness of scripture.
The point is this, even if the Book of Mormon is fiction in the sense that it is about people who never existed doing things that never happened, is the text also a discussion about the way in which we read (and write) scripture, theories of salvation, commentary on creation, death and resurrection, and so on. And if it is, does this mean that it doesn't exactly match our modern genre of fiction? And let's be honest .... like Nietzsche's novel, I doubt that anyone is ever going to simply read the Book of Mormon to enjoy it as a work of fiction ....
Maybe its essentially nobody reads it and enjoys it as fiction. Someone does, just out of curiosity for the religion that promotes it, if for nothing else. The broad category of fiction seems to include many things. I don't think that means we call an attempt to set a book in the past, claiming it represents the past, something other than fiction if the history told did not happen. But on that point, history books that misrepresent the past, due to things like bad applications of the discipline of history, still fall in the category of non-fiction. Scripture, I grant, is something different. But one has to wonder what would be the point of scripture, if God tells people to write a story as if it describes actual events from history, perhaps even making the authors think it really is history, if it is not representing actual events from the past?
You might consider something I wrote as part of my essay on reading Nephi:
The narrative unit in which this vision occurs begins with Lehi’s having a dream and sharing it with his family. Following that dream, two responses are presented. One is the response of Nephi and the other comes from his brothers Laman and Lemuel. ... The two approaches deal with discovering meaning in the vision. In the first potential response to the vision, Nephi goes to the source and asks to receive this vision for himself. Laman and Lemuel on the other hand take a more traditional approach and argue with each other over what the vision that their father had described meant. After the failure of the second approach, a third is offered, with Nephi (who has now seen the vision and can be considered its oracle) explaining it to his brothers. It is in his explanation that we see an admission of the unreliable narrator:

True to the words of the Spirit, Nephi is shown the same thing that his father saw. But, as Nephi tells us with his pervasive language of looking and seeing, the vision is something that is experienced. Lehi missed some details of the vision that Nephi saw because he was paying attention elsewhere. Lehi then (apparently) could not answer Laman and Lemuel’s question about the river. What Nephi does not tell us explicitly is that while his mind was swallowed up looking at the river of filthy water, he inevitably missed some details that his father saw.

Seen in this way, this revelation by vision is a personal experience. Since we are all different people, our interactions will not conform to some universal standard — our individual experience of the vision will be different from everyone else’s. While we may have greater overlap with those who share our backgrounds and knowledge, the experience may be quite different when compared with those who don’t. The narrator can only provide us with the details that he is aware of. He cannot give us the details of his father’s vision that he missed. And he certainly cannot provide us with a reasonable telling of the vision as we might experience it.

The inclusion of this narrative of the vision within Nephi’s book, along with an interpretation, isn’t an invitation to stop. In fact, in following Nephi’s explanation, if we stop with his text, we have in fact become no better than Laman or Lemuel asking Nephi for meaning (or, since we really cannot ask a text anything, we are left to dispute one with another as to its meaning). Even if we look to authoritative sources for interpretations (including the interpretation provided by Nephi himself), we are left with something that is best used only if the “Lord maketh no such thing known unto us.”

The underlying message is that only in receiving the vision for ourselves can we approach the revelation of God. Only in our experience can we find greater understanding (even while we recognize that our own vision may be different and potentially even contradictory to what others have seen). Nephi cannot give us the vision; he can only reflect on its meaning and interpret it for us.

What is the tension that we see? Nephi is both providing us with a text that is true, based on his experiences — the things which he saw and heard — and yet at the same time, at least from a postmodernist perspective, Nephi is undermining the authority and the value of his experience as truth: namely, he cannot present us with his vision and he cannot give us his experience. What he does give us is woefully incomplete and potentially misunderstood and misinterpreted by those who do not seek the revelation for themselves (either by pursuing the vision as Nephi did or by reading with the Spirit as Nephi later explains). From a postmodernist perspective, Nephi unveils himself as the unreliable narrator as he begins to dismantle the assumptions he brought with him as he began his text.
In a way, there is something ironic in all of this if you look at the LDS Sunday School manual for this part of the Book of Mormon. It is filled with 'authoritative' explanations of the symbolism of the vision. All of which completely misses the point of the vision itself - and the Book of Mormon's narrative which undermines the value of those authoritative explanations. In contrast to the Book of Mormon's narrative, the Sunday School manual offers us a view of an inerrant (perfect) text which just needs to be understood appropriately. From my perspective, Dastardly Stem, an inerrant, perfectly inspired text, is in reality no different from any other text. We are still left with all of these same questions - except that there are no answers. Except in some ways, its even worse. Because with an inerrant text, is it really appropriate to question the text's meaning? Isn't it supposed to be self-revealing? And aren't we supposed to listen to those authoritative voices who can explain exactly what it means? As Socrates notes in Plato's Phaedrus:
You know, Phaedrus, that is the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly correspond to painting. The painter’s products stand before us as though they were alive. But if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words. They seem to talk to you as though they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say from a desire to be instructed they go on telling just the same thing forever.
I think that while the either/or issue of the Book of Mormon as fiction/historical may be useful in discussing the text as an artifact, it isn't helpful in discussing the way that we read it, the meaning of the text as we read it, or the ways in which it can be meaningful to us in an extra-textual way. Maybe that's just me ...
Interesting.

As I would put it, inspiring texts are a dime a dozen. Scripture is not some class on its own. It is text that provides inspiration as do many other works of various genres. Inspiration on this view, though, has nothing to do with a God. It has all to do with the individual. What inspires is what colloquially motivates people to do something that they deep down want to do. For me there is next to nothing inspiring about Lehi and Nephi's vision. It seems to carry meaning only to a few, in this world, and oddly whenever it is invoked, its as if the invoker does not realize most often the naughty people poking their fingers out and mocking, can only be those who pretend to have special privilege from God to the point of being set up to inherit the highest of heavens. Why does that fit? Because doing the worldly things is bad and is to be seen as god-condemned. And those things happen to be the things the mocker does, but done by others...or so it seems.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

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Dr. Cam wrote: If a non-fiction book turns out to be fictional, see: A Million Little Pieces, it radically alters our relationship with the world it built, and the lessons it attempts to impart. Sure, one can still get some warm fuzzies if one is willing to ignore the Lie, but the Lie persists, inevitably and constantly, in the background of our consciousness.
There is an out. What if the Book of Mormon was written by Shakespeare in the spirit world, and the evidence continues to mount (cough) that it's a "15th century document"?

See, I don't think Mormons really give a rat's ass if the Book of Mormon is historical or if it's ancient. They only care if they can say, "How could he have known!" about Joseph Smith. It has to be the keystone. The thing critics can't explain.

And so the ONLY case I can see it working as fiction for a Chapel Mormon is if it's still magical, such as it's a product of the spirit world and there is hard evidence proving it.

"Richness" is too abstract for the average Chapel Mormon. They need hard proof.
We can't take farmers and take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have. They get rid of some of the people who have been there for 25 years and they work great and then you throw them out and they're replaced by criminals.
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by Benjamin McGuire »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:45 pm
Great post as always. That bit tripped me up, though. I can’t wrap my mind around how a book being a work of fiction isn’t meaningful in an ‘extra-textual’ way. It’s literally the foundation upon which the book itself is premised, whether or not the events are real, and how that relates to the reader. If a non-fiction book turns out to be fictional, see: A Million Little Pieces, it radically alters our relationship with the world it built, and the lessons it attempts to impart. Sure, one can still get some warm fuzzies if one is willing to ignore the Lie, but the Lie persists, inevitably and constantly, in the background of our consciousness.
I don't disagree with this. Perhaps I am just not communicating well. And I think I am only providing my own personal perspective, which is that scriptural texts (like the Bible and even the Book of Mormon) aren't written as histories or intended to be read in that way (especially in the context of history as we view it today). If I am reading the text as a history text, or as a work of fiction, in both cases, I am not going to find the text to be all that rewarding. And as a text, it isn't going to change me very much. But, if I am reading it as I would a text trying to make a theological point, or engage in a philosophical debate, then I find it to be very interesting indeed - and in engaging those topics with the text, my perception inevitably changes. This is why I used Nietzsche's novel as a comparison.

I was fascinated some years ago when I read this article in the Smithsonian magazine (at the time it was my executive time reading material):
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-cul ... -21416298/
It sometimes surprises me how I can forget where I put my glasses, and yet remember with some vivid recollections an article I first read 13 years ago and my response to it at the time ... In any case, as the article points out, there was a discovery (in 1987) of a time capsule of recordings discovered buried beneath the Paris Opera house. They are dated by a note describing their donation in 1907. And a description of the burial of this time capsule seems to be recorded in the 1910 publication of the Phantom of the Opera, where it was the discovery of a skull during the excavation that triggers the narrative in that novel. Was there a skull? Was that part of the fiction imagined by Leroux? Leroux wrote: "It will be remembered that, later, when digging in the substructure of the Opéra, before burying the phonographic records of the artist's voice, the workmen laid bare a corpse." So the burial of the phonographic records seems to be a historical fact (the work is still a fictional novel). And would contemporaries of the publication of that novel remember this event (the burial of the phonographic records) and this then becomes, instead of a sort of bit of background noise that it is for us today, a point of contemporary events in which to place the novel and make it more realistic to its audience. In which case, the time and distance that has passed from them until now makes us less competent readers. This sort of thing goes both ways.

Believers have always had this problem with the Book of Mormon in that they have no context in which to place it. There is no way for them to cross that gap. And so we get artistic attempts that are clearly problematic (whether the text is historical or not). Friberg anyone? And then from there ... there was a Bagley cartoon (I think it was a Bagley) I read a long time ago with two kids walking through a temple visitor center, and the one says to the other: "You know what it takes to be a prophet? Faith, and steroids." I think that this is also the reason why the several attempts to place the Book of Mormon into a historical context have fared so poorly among Mormonism as a whole. Connected to a history of a real place in the past, it still does not provide a context that is relatable. Do we have to become experts in Mesoamerican history to understand the text? Perhaps it is enough for most people to simply believe that it can be done. I suspect this may be the reason why mainstream Christians often have such little interest in near eastern history with regard to the Bible.

While it is true that our beliefs about the text matter a great deal to the way that we read the text, I have found that from my postmodernist perspective, the historical aspects of the text and its production narrative do little to inform the ways in which I draw meaning from the text. My favorite description of the process of reading comes from Donald Davidson, who builds from the statement from Plato that I quoted earlier - this is from his essay "The Third Man" published in Critical Inquiry 19 (Summer 1993):
Writing deviates startlingly from the original triangle. The object directly observed by both reader and writer is the text. It is produced by the writer, but in the case of literature the text is alienated from its creator by the lapse in time between when it is made and when it is read; the interaction between perceiving creatures that is the foundation of communication is lost. Plato marks the gulf between talking to a person and reading his words:
That's the strange thing about writing, which makes it truly analogous to painting. The painter's products stand before us as though they were alive: but if you question them, they maintain a most majestic silence. It is the same with written words: they seem to talk to you as though, they were intelligent, but if you ask them anything about what they say, they go on telling you just the same thing for ever.
It's true that generally neither the text nor its author can respond to the reader. The interaction is of another sort. The text, unlike most objects, has meaning, and its meaning is the product of the interplay between the intentions of the writer to be understood in a certain way and the interpretation put on the writer's words by the reader. For the most part this interplay is, and is meant to be, routine, in the sense that the writer knows pretty well how he or she is apt to be understood, and the typical reader knows pretty' well how the writer intended to be understood. This is not always the case. Writers like Shakespeare, Dante, Joyce, Beckett strain our interpretive powers and thus force us into retrospective dialogue with the text, and through the text with the author. Authors may choose from many devices to rouse the reader to wrestle with the text: thought provoking puzzles, ambiguous authorial attitudes, plays within plays, stylistic references to other writers, autobiographical hints. But however it is done, and to whatever extent the reader's connivance is won, authors have contrived or commandeered an arena of ideas and assumptions large enough to contain both themselves and their audience, a common conceptual space.
Getting back to my comparison with the Bible, I think that there is a broad range of believers (and critics) views on what the Bible is, and how it should be read, and what meaning it should have. This occurs even though, as you suggest, the book is premised on being a historical record (whether it is the law given to Moses, or the words of the incarnation in Jesus Himself). With the Book of Mormon I don't see so much variation in belief, although I suspect that time (and distance) will help create a broader umbrella. The difference isn't that great. Many Mormons who have an inerrantist approach to the Book of Mormon try to take the same approach to the Bible (like the recent article we discussed about the Documentary Hypothesis). The discussion generally want to minimize the change that such an approach makes to the way we read. If there really was a 'Book of Moses' written by a Moses, then we have a historical grounding.

In a nod in your direction, I also recognize that much of what grounds the way that traditional LDS members view the Book of Mormon is the narrative of its production, which comes with an angel Moroni, claiming to be the final writer of the gold plates. It is harder to separate that narrative (of its production) from the historical claims of the text. Perhaps such a separation is even impossible within the LDS Church to the extent that might be necessary to discuss the text separate from such a historical narrative. But, until that happens, it seems to me that few will ever see the text as more than an artifact demonstrating evidence for the prophetic call of Joseph Smith. And the Book of Mormon can hold this role without anyone ever really needing to read the text, let alone to read it in a more than superficial way. Going back to the article about the time capsule, there is this really fascinating comment (at least to me):
To what extent must fact be blended with fancy to create the willing suspension of disbelief? For me, a novel that is not about place is not much of a novel. It is instead a memoir of thinly veiled or nonexistent people wandering through a desolate and unreal landscape.
This is something of a casual question (and not a philosophical discussion on reading and literature). Are we looking at two sides of the same coin? What are the necessary components to allow the text to be read as a literal history?

For me, it was when I stopped being overly concerned with the text as history (or fiction) and instead became interested in the text as an intention (as a speech act) that it became really interesting.
hauslern
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Re: Books of Mormon, Abraham, Moses as Inspired Fiction

Post by hauslern »

Did Abraham really sit on "King Pharoah's" throne discussing astronomy?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hy4 ... OJ5qM/edit

Was facsimlle 2 misinterpeted by Joseph Smith?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fc7 ... t3DDc/edit

Was facsimile 2 a common thing in Egyptian funeray documents?
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... t/Y_EA8445

Did Smith incorrectly restore the missing parts in facsimile 2?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f7Y ... 4Sbbg/edit

What about the failed search for the historical Abraham? See Finkelstein The Bible Unearthed pp.33-ff.
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