DCP Admits to "LDS Academic Embarrassment"

[_Mister Scratch]

My "position" is that the LDS apologists have failed to try and present their "Book of Mormon History" arguments in legit academic venues. The fact that they've failed to do so indicates embarrassment and shame on their part. I'm not sure why you think me citing Coe would have anything to do with that basic thesis.

It is not so much they have failed, but that it will take a lot more to convince professionals to go into the depth they need to, to even have a competent debate with Mormon scholars,

Ah, good! I'm glad we agree. For starters, the Mormon scholars can try publishes in legit venues, rather than hiding in their "stacked deck" bubble of highly biased and tainted peer review. You seem to have some cockamamie notion about how scholarship works, and to think that secular scholars need to wander into FARMS in order to be convinced by these theories. In reality, the opposite is the standard way of operation: those who are positing the unusual theory are the ones who have to do the convincing.

without making any judgements about whether or not it's "fantasy" (beastie has only engaged a couple of these scholars, and no final conclusions should be drawn from that, and that's my beef, that "final conclusions" appear to be drawn). More important, in my opinion, than archaeology, are the internal evidences for the Book of Mormon.

Such as what? Chiasmus? The plagiarisms? The fact that Christ commits genocide? Or do you mean "internal" as in your own, "internal" feelings about it?

That has not even been touched on the surface by scholars like Coe (beastie has not even ventured there, yet). I have always argued this.

What are you talking about, Ray? It sounds like you are chastising Coe for not examining the Book of Mormon's "internal evidences" (whatever those are) when he has said all along that he is interested in examining external historical evidence.... What, is he supposed to say, "Hey, Lehi's dream! Yes! That tells us something about ancient America!"

I think most know that I have serious doubts about historicity, but there are very impressive internal evidences which strongly keep my interest.

Again, what are you talking about? This entire thread has been devoted to discussing Book of Mormon historicity, and now you are carrying on about "internal evidences"? Internal evidences of what, Ray?

Whatever may be said about Mormonism itself, the Book of Mormon is not going to be easily dismissed, and broader non-Mormon scholarship is yet to go into this debate about internal evidences (some already have) at length.

CFR!

I don't think the Book of Mormon will ever be shown to be "literal" history, and I'm quite sure not even Brant has argued that. And this is what he told me on FAIR. The nuances of this debate go much deeper than finding curelom bones. The "final word" is still a million miles away.

Many of the posters who mock Mormonism and the Book of Mormon on this forum have "issues", and those are emotional issues which have little to do with scholarship. It's like reading Dawkins and Davies. Some will side with Dawkins, others will side with Davies, and never the twain shall meet.

Although you've been calm as of late, Ray, you would have to count yourself as having perhaps the most egregious case of "emotional issues" of all. It is hard to think of anyone who can compare in terms of ranting, childish behavior, and temper tantrums.

[_Ray A]

Although you've been calm as of late, Ray, you would have to count yourself as having perhaps the most egregious case of "emotional issues" of all. It is hard to think of anyone who can compare in terms of ranting, childish behavior, and temper tantrums.

I do admit that at times I can be almost as bad as RFMers. Your view is biased, Scratch (eyes pop out in surprise).

[_truth dancer]

Here is a thought.

How about the very best LDS Mesoamerican scholars/apologists/anthropologists/archaeologists write a paper on the history of the Book of Mormon and the Maya, and see if it can get published by an appropriate respected scholarly journal.

Has there ever been an attempt of this sort?

Seems apologists claim no Mesoamerican scholar has studied the Book of Mormon enough to understand, but they (as far as I know), have not presented a theory to be studied.

I mean isn't this the traditional way of bringing forth amazing, (or even not amazing.. smile), discoveries?

If the Book of Mormon could shed light on the history of our world, why not share the information with the world's scholars?

Just an idea...

~dancer~

[_charity]

I can't find gadiaton's post about getting degrees in Book of Mormon studies from BYU.

But here is the answer. The major purpose of obtaining a ph. d. is for employability. Mainstream seminaries pop out their graduates with degrees so they can go out and get a job as a paid minister. We have a lay church. So what is going to happen to the people with degrees in Book of Mormon studies? You want fries with that? That is the reason. That isn't going to change.

[_karl61]

I can't find gadiaton's post about getting degrees in Book of Mormon studies from BYU.

But here is the answer. The major purpose of obtaining a ph. d. is for employability. Mainstream seminaries pop out their graduates with degrees so they can go out and get a job as a paid minister. We have a lay church. So what is going to happen to the people with degrees in Book of Mormon studies? You want fries with that? That is the reason. That isn't going to change.

I think to get a degree in Book of Mormon studies you first have to create classes in reformed egyptian, native american archeology etc:

some of the classes could be reformed egyption 101ab, 201ab, and independent study - which usally leads to the MAD board and then a boot to the MDB.

[_Mister Scratch]

I can't find gadiaton's post about getting degrees in Book of Mormon studies from BYU.

But here is the answer. The major purpose of obtaining a ph. d. is for employability.

Oh, it is? According to whom? You? I would think that those who put in the effort to obtain a Ph.D. do so for reasons beyond mere employment. Relatively speaking, university professors do not make as much money as they would in the private sector. Further, I think you overlook the 'love' factor---i.e., people go into these fields because they genuinely like/love what they are studying, and believe that they can make a contribution to the field, and to humanity's body of knowledge writ-large.

Mainstream seminaries pop out their graduates with degrees so they can go out and get a job as a paid minister.

Yeah, right. I'm sure it's as simple as that. Just like how the Church pops out missionaries so they can have tithe payers for life. Uh huh.

We have a lay church. So what is going to happen to the people with degrees in Book of Mormon studies? You want fries with that? That is the reason. That isn't going to change.

Ideally, people w/ Mormon Studies degrees would be able to hold positions in theology departments across the country, if not the world. Of course, this would entail LDS scholars branching out into the larger world, rather than hiding behind the aegis of FARMS/FAIR. Their embarrassment is holding them back.

[_beastie]

I do admit that at times I can be almost as bad as RFMers. Your view is biased, Scratch (eyes pop out in surprise).

Oh please. You are far worse.

[_Ray A]

Oh please. You are far worse.

Your bias shows here more than anywhere else. If I was on your "side", you'd have about two lines of criticism of me, if that.

[_beastie]

Your bias shows here more than anywhere else. If I was on your "side", you'd have about two lines of criticism of me, if that.

Sure, Ray. It's my bias, and not the fact that you actually threatened to harm LDS missionaries.

[_Mister Scratch]

Oh please. You are far worse.

Your bias shows here more than anywhere else. If I was on your "side", you'd have about two lines of criticism of me, if that.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Beastie, Ray. Your threats of violence and your apoplectic profanity make you far, far worse than all but 1% of the people on RfM, and that hardly matters, since one can find an equal number of disgustingly evil-minded and hateful TBMs in the "Letters from Mormons" section on that same site.