Mormonism -> Atheism, Why?

[_beastie]

If it were completely up to "Christians" like thews to make arguments against Mormonism, nobody would ever leave it.

Ain't that the truth. I actually think thews is the type of critic that should please Mormons. He's easy to refute, yet doesn't realize he's been refuted, indulges in frequent personal attacks, all the while deriding others who respond in kind. He's the perfect MAD critic.

You are so awesome... please give us a list so we can all be as awesome as you are (insert the correct opinion here)

You really are not very good at this - any of this. You're not good at defending your assertions, you're not good at responding to those who are genuinely addressing your points, and you're a hypocrite who whines about being mistreated while engaging in the exact same behavior you decry.

You can't even admit I, and others, were right about the meaning of agnosticism. When shown you were incorrect, you deflected by engaging in sneers and insults. You previously couldn't admit you were wrong about the meaning of pedophile. When shown you were wrong, you deflected by engaging in sneers and insults. This is a pattern. To make matters worse, you aren't even good at insults.

Go prepare for your finals. God knows you need to crack a book.

[_thews]

Ain't that the truth. I actually think thews is the type of critic that should please Mormons. He's easy to refute, yet doesn't realize he's been refuted, indulges in frequent personal attacks, all the while deriding others who respond in kind. He's the perfect MAD critic.

Listen monkey brain, I realize you fancy yourself as some sort of internet hero, but I don't care that we disagree. The more you attempt to rally support only goes to show how much support you need. It's quite common for LDS to do this, and if you and your hyphenated beliefs system works for you, so what... we disagree, but I don't need an attack team to back me up ...you obviously do.

You really are not very good at this - any of this. You're not good at defending your assertions, you're not good at responding to those who are genuinely addressing your points, and you're a hypocrite who whines about being mistreated while engaging in the exact same behavior you decry.

yawn... who asked you hero? You continue to assert you're some sort of authority ...meh, just another opinion, but one you obviously need some help with.

You can't even admit I, and others, were right about the meaning of agnosticism. When shown you were incorrect, you deflected by engaging in sneers and insults. You previously couldn't admit you were wrong about the meaning of pedophile. When shown you were wrong, you deflected by engaging in sneers and insults. This is a pattern. To make matters worse, you aren't even good at insults.

We aren't 5, I'm not a wuss that needs to prove I'm a great big man by flexing internet muscles, and in case you haven't caught on yet I really don't give a rat's ass what you think of me. If you need to invent conflicting hyphenated definition of what you believe, I don't care about that either.

Go prepare for your finals. God knows you need to crack a book.

Man yer one tough dude... a hero in your own mind.

[_Jersey Girl]

thews,

What is the basis for your views regarding hell?

[_beastie]

thews couldn't have demonstrated my points better if he had tried.

First, look at the silly insults: "monkey brain" "internet hero"... Come on, if you're going to sling around insults, think about your audience enough to make them somewhat entertaining.

Second, look at this inability to admit he was flat-out wrong about what agnosticism means:

If you need to invent conflicting hyphenated definition of what you believe, I don't care about that either.

Amazing. How many links would I have to provide before thews recognizes - on any level - that he simply doesn't understand what agnosticism means and that I didn't "invent" anything??

In years past, I've banged my head bloody against walls very similar to this one, although they were usually LDS. I'm older and wiser now.

[_beastie]

Hey, let’s play a little game. How many links or citations does it take before thews blinks an eye ?? My guess is one would have to approach infinity before he'll blink.

George Smith, the author of "Atheism" divides agnostics into two types:

Agnostic theists: those who believe that a deity probably exists;

Agnostic atheists: those who believe that it is very improbable that a deity exists. 5

Another category of Agnostic is "empirical Agnostics." They believe that God may exist, but that little or nothing can be known about him/her/it/them. Still another category are "Agnostic Humanists." These individuals are undecided about the existence of God. Further, they do not really consider the question to be particularly important. They have derived their moral and behavioral codes from secular considerations. Their ethical behavior would not be altered if a deity were proven to exist.Some agnostics who feel the need for religious discussion, fellowship, or ritual join a congregation of the Unitarian-Universalist Association or an Ethical Culture group.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Agnosticism is the position of believing that knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God is impossible. It is often put forth as a middle ground between theism and atheism. Understood this way, agnosticism is skepticism regarding all things theological. The agnostic holds that human knowledge is limited to the natural world, that the mind is incapable of knowledge of the supernatural. Understood this way, an agnostic could also be a theist or an atheist. The former is called a fideist, one who believes in God purely on faith. The latter is sometimes accused by theists of having faith in the non-existence of God, but the accusation is absurd and the expression meaningless. The agnostic atheist simply finds no compelling reason to believe in God.

http://www.skepdic.com/agnosticism.html

Agnostic atheism, also called atheistic agnosticism, encompasses atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not have belief in the existence of any deity, and agnostic because they do not claim to know that a deity does not exist. The agnostic atheist may be contrasted with the agnostic theist, who does believe that one or more deities exist but does not claim to have knowledge of such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

ag•nos•ti•cism ( g-n s t -s z m)
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
________________________________________
agnosticism
the tenet that neither the existence nor the nature of God is known or knowable. —

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnosticism

I must be all-powerful. According to thews, I just invented a hyphenated word, and instantly my hyphenated invention can be found all over the internet, including in dictionaries!!! Forget James T. Kirk, I must be frickin' god himself!!!

[_thews]

thews,

What is the basis for your views regarding hell?

What I've concluded. If you knew hell didn't exist, you wouldn't fear it. If you knew life was only about learning what it's like to be human, then you'd know... that's the point. if God is all powerful then he could squash Satan anytime... Satan is a metaphor in my opinion, and is used to represent evil. If evil exists here and not in the afterlife, we will have knowledge of evil, and that's the objective in my opinion, but the main caveat is we cannot know for sure either way. I don't believe anyone goes to hell, but I'm not the judge. Once you die, if God asked you what you learned instead of what you did to prove your good deeds, the answer would be different. If I'm right, we cannot be held to a book of rules that we didn't know for sure we were being judged by. Once we die, we will have knowledge of good and evil, and what it's like to live without God. Once we know that, we would never defy God, which is the metaphor of the serpent. I may be wrong, but I think we all get the golden ticket and some experience. Why each experience is different is something only God knows. In this, I don't believe atheists are damned for not believing in God. They will be the most humbled in his presence, but if God tells them life was meant to experience, then they would have that experience. Hell doesn't make sense... but maybe it's message is meant for those who cannot comprehend what a higher intellect can? Think about it.. one word to all people. This assumes everyone has the same mental capability or capacity to comprehend. I've seen the walls of Notre Dam, and the carvings were meant for those who couldn't read. Maybe that's what it means when it's said the meek will inherit the earth? Anyway, i think it has a purpose, but in the end we're in it now, because evil exists here.

[_thews]

In years past, I've banged my head bloody against walls very similar to this one, although they were usually LDS. I'm older and wiser now.

That's your opinion... you use the word "silly" ...it says a lot about you.

[_beastie]

Still not a blink…

Once it is understood that atheism is merely the absence of belief in any gods, it becomes evident that agnosticism is not, as many assume, a “third way” between atheism and theism. The presence of a belief in a god and the absence of a belief in a god exhaust all of the possibilities. Agnosticism is not about belief in god but about knowledge — it was coined originally to describe the position of a person who could not claim to know for sure if any gods exist or not.
Thus, it is clear that agnosticism is compatible with both theism and atheism. A person can believe in a god (theism) without claiming to know for sure if that god exists; the result is agnostic theism. On the other hand, a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.

http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnost ... theism.htm

You are here: Philosophy >> Learn More About Agnostics! >> Agnostic Atheist
What is an Agnostic Atheist?

What is an Agnostic Atheist? This question has a few different answers that agree in concept but vary in the details. To more easily understand this particular strand of atheism, let’s break the term down into its separate words.

First, an atheist is one who does not believe in God. Additionally, the atheist may or may not actually deny the existence of God. Second, agnosticism has two main streams. The “soft” agnostic does not know whether or not there is a God. The “hard” agnostic says one cannot know about the existence of God. Some people term this hard agnosticism as “agnostic atheism.” These definitions of agnosticism leave open the possibility of an agnostic also being an atheist, a theist, or one who endorses neither position.

There are several specific beliefs that are within the defined limits of agnostic atheism. An agnostic atheist may be described as a person who does not believe in God or gods and who holds one or more of the following to be true:
• The existence or nonexistence of deities is not known or is unknowable.
• The knowledge of the existence or nonexistence of deities is unimportant.
• The claim to knowledge of existence or nonexistence of deities is best avoided.
The agnostic atheist, therefore, combines elements of not knowing the existence of God with the unbelief in God.

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/agnos ... st-faq.htm

Most atheists are agnostic atheists, whether they know it or not. It is the default position.

Agnostic atheists lack belief in gods/deities, but do not deny the possibility that gods/deities might exist. That's all.

It's like a lack of belief in unicorns. Even though 99.9% of the population lacks belief in unicorns, they cannot claim that they KNOW unicorns don't exist. Instead, they deny the 'probability' of unicorns existing, but they don't deny the 'possibility' of unicorns existing.

Agnosticism is a position on knowledge, while atheism is a position on belief. Also, people can be agnostic theists, for example.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 811AA6pbXB

I’d bet good money that I can come back in an hour and there still won’t be a blink. I can’t make it to infinity, but given the fact that agnostic-atheism is actually a well know term with a particular definition, I can rack up quite a few in a very short time.

OTOH, maybe I am god, and have, in my omnipotence, willed all these articles into existence in the blink of an eye. (while waiting for thews’ blink)

[_dblagent007]

If it were completely up to "Christians" like thews to make arguments against Mormonism, nobody would ever leave it.

Amen. I encountered the Christian stuff on my mission and found it, uh, less than persuasive. It essentially boils down to "our magical traditions are real and valid and yours aren't."

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, at the rate you're banging your head against that particular wall, you're going to need to visit an ER soon.

I think what you fail to realize is that opinion doesn't have to agree with yours to be valid. :highfives: don't add anything to a discussion.

Ditto for you as well.

But I think I will take Beastie's advice. I am sure you are a nice enough person. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps as we interact we will find other things to agree on.