Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_Franktalk]

Perhaps Jo1952 is unfamiliar with the word...let me help...

Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work,

In your helping did you indeed use an online dictionary? Is this from another source or did you create this original work? I see no link or note telling me where you obtained this definition. Did you indeed plagiarize to obtain the very definition of plagiarism? I have a hard time believing you could be that stupid.

I did find this on Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work,

I guess it could be a total accident that your original work just happens to match wiki so close.

[_Tobin]

I think you've got the wrong idea of me. You, Nightlion, and Tobin see the changes that have come in the church and take it as evidence that the church has gone astray from the truth. I see plenty of evidence that the church never had the truth, so the changes that have come are just what should be expected from a man-made institution trying to survive in a changing culture.

Nope. I don't think the LDS Church has ever had the entire truth and has always been teaching some truths that were from God mixed with the falsities of men. Again, my view of the LDS Church is merely an association of members and often reflects the weaknesses and fallibility of men.

As a result, teachings around topics such as the salvation of children who die before they become accountable, can often be confused or simply wrong. I believe one should carefully study the issue and not accept false conclusions that are inconsistent with the rest of the gospel because of the many problems I've highlighted in this thread.

[_Cylon]

I think you've got the wrong idea of me. You, Nightlion, and Tobin see the changes that have come in the church and take it as evidence that the church has gone astray from the truth. I see plenty of evidence that the church never had the truth, so the changes that have come are just what should be expected from a man-made institution trying to survive in a changing culture.

Nope. I don't think the LDS Church has ever had the entire truth and has always been teaching some truths that were from God mixed with the falsities of men. Again, my view of the LDS Church is that it is merely an association of members and often reflects the weaknesses and fallibility of men.

As a result, teachings around topics such as the salvation of children who die before they become accountable, can often be confused or simply wrong. I believe one should carefully study the issue and not accept false conclusions that are inconsistent with the rest of the gospel because of the many problems I've highlighted in this thread.

OK. Sorry if I misrepresented your position there.

However, this sounds like you're going against your previous statements that the church did not teach that children who die are saved. Now it sounds like you're saying they just got it wrong when they taught that, because it goes against the rest of the gospel. Is that right?

[_Tobin]

Nope. I don't think the LDS Church has ever had the entire truth and has always been teaching some truths that were from God mixed with the falsities of men. Again, my view of the LDS Church is that it is merely an association of members and often reflects the weaknesses and fallibility of men.

As a result, teachings around topics such as the salvation of children who die before they become accountable, can often be confused or simply wrong. I believe one should carefully study the issue and not accept false conclusions that are inconsistent with the rest of the gospel because of the many problems I've highlighted in this thread.

OK. Sorry if I misrepresented your position there.

However, this sounds like you're going against your previous statements that the church did not teach that children who die are saved. Now it sounds like you're saying they just got it wrong when they taught that, because it goes against the rest of the gospel. Is that right?

Not exactly. Children are ultimately saved and don't go to hell in these circumstances (this is why this was revealed). I accept that. I however do not accept the idea that they are automatically exalted and skip all the steps that the rest of us take in order to become Celestial beings. I believe they need to afforded all the opportunities that anyone else has to be married for example and do other things the Lord has commanded. And I believe various prophets have suggested that these opportunities will be given to them.

[Guest]

And, as is Tobin's wont, he changes his narrative when his assertions are proven to be untenable.

First, he was asserting that LDS leaders had not really taught that children who die before the age of accountability are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, and that those who said otherwise had a "dim understanding" of Mormonism and should "stop pretending you understand a thing about Mormonism."

Now that his assertions have been thoroughly disproved, he has decided that the Church really does teach that children who die before the age of accountability are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, but the Church has it wrong. Thus continues the age-old pattern of a religious zealot reframing his claims of fact, after they have been discredited, as statements of religious belief.

Oh, and the Church is just an association of people who largely have everything wrong, and whose leaders don't understand God and truth and all that like Tobin does. But God still wants us to be in the LDS Church, and those who leave it will have to answer to God.

We are indeed fortunate to live in the age of the internet, when such incoherent, make-it-up-as-you-go apocalyptic rhetoric is no longer confined to raving street preachers.

EDIT: Fixed typo.

[_Tobin]

From earlier in the discussion since some people here like to be completely disingenuous and misrepresent things.

D&C 137:10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

I don't believe it is as clear as you seem to think. I believe the Lord is speaking here about children being saved (preserved) in the CK as spirits. The reason for this is they are innocent and so they are spotless and can freely return to be in the presence of God as spirits (unlike you and I). This is not however the Lord discussing what other prophets have touched on including these children eventually being raised during the Millenium and the need they have of doing everything that is required of those that wish to be exalted as resurrected Celestial Beings in the CK.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I don't believe it is as clear as you seem to think. I believe the Lord is speaking here about children being saved (preserved) in the CK as spirits. The reason for this is they are innocent and so they are spotless and can freely return to be in the presence of God as spirits (unlike you and I). This is not however the Lord discussing what other prophets have touched on including these children eventually being raised during the Millenium and the need they have of doing everything that is required of those that wish to be exalted as resurrected Celestial Beings in the CK.

Spirits don't live in the celestial kingdom. How can you claim to be a Mormon and not know this?

[_Tobin]

I don't believe it is as clear as you seem to think. I believe the Lord is speaking here about children being saved (preserved) in the CK as spirits. The reason for this is they are innocent and so they are spotless and can freely return to be in the presence of God as spirits (unlike you and I). This is not however the Lord discussing what other prophets have touched on including these children eventually being raised during the Millenium and the need they have of doing everything that is required of those that wish to be exalted as resurrected Celestial Beings in the CK.

Spirits don't live in the celestial kingdom. How can you claim to be a Mormon and not know this?

Oh my....

[_Bob Loblaw]

Oh my....

I love the way you defend belief in Mormonism by throwing out just about every teaching from the prophets and scriptures.

[_Tobin]

Oh my....

I love the way you defend belief in Mormonism by throwing out just about every teaching from the prophets and scriptures.

Spirits don't live in the celestial kingdom. How can you claim to be a Mormon and not know this?

Bob, when I said some people on this forum have a dim understanding of Mormonism, I may have been a bit too generous in that assessment.