The Unreasonableness of Atheism

[_Moniker]

I thought you were well read on evolution, yet, apparently you're not.

I am.

Altruism is necessary for survival.

Sure. But you are speaking to someone who believes evolution is part of the (God) creative process. However, perhaps it's a mistake to address altruism here as it may not apply to the question.

Well, that's why I said you're going back to the default of God. I don't think humans were created by God, rather by natural forces of evolution.

And them from.....?

From society that learned the best way to navigate safely in this world.

And society gets it from? And what keeps everyone on track?

Okay. :)

In the beginning there were small clans, hunter gatherers -- within these small clans there had to be cooperation to ensure survival. Those that were more able to successfully survive passed on these genes to their offspring. These were the first mini societies. I don't think you read the article I linked for you!

What keeps everyone on track? There is legislation, police forces, societal norms, and prisons for those that don't follow the rules of societal conduct.

Mirror neurons are in our brain. Some theorize that mirror neurons are actually responsible for our great leap forward and culture derived from them.

Look here, please: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramacha ... an_p1.html

Again, where does all this come from?

I say evolution and you say God. Right? :)

You need to define a hedonistic libertine lifestyle, for me. I imagine our definitions vary widely. For instance, hedonism is merely pursuit of pleasure -- my pursuit of pleasure actually entails ensuring that those about me are pleased, as well. I am altruistic because it makes me feel good, and I also recognize the benefits of helping humanity. I don't believe in an afterlife and believe I must do all I can while I live to help others that go without. I have been very blessed in my life and want to share my blessings with others. Altruism is hedonism, for me.

One can certainly be concerned for others and still be a libertine or a hedonist.

Why would an atheist have any values at all beyond the self? Why would such make an atheist feel good?

I can't speak for all atheists, only myself. Why do I have concern or values beyond myself? I grew up in a family and learned to love them. I was adopted and recognized that family was not the end all of cooperation as I recognized that I was taken in by biological strangers and knew not who my biological family was. I formed friendships and through these relationships learned how to be a good friend. I had a lover and a husband and learned how to be a good wife and lover. I watched news programs, read books, etc... and winced in pain at injustices or struggles. Life would be very lonely if I cared only for myself. Why would family, love, friendship, and human bonds NOT make anyone feel good? You act as if atheists are aliens and not humans.

[_beastie]

For heaven's sake, bc, your questions are answered in the link I provided. Of course you didn't read it, so I conclude your questions are not sincere. Surprise, surprise.

The answer, in short: human beings who manifested certain behaviors (that we now view as "moral") were more likely to survive and reproduce than human beings who did not. Hence, the tendency to manifest certain behaviors became codified, whether through genetics or social training.

Prove that you really do understand evolution, cuz this is evolution. Behaviors that result in increased survival and reproduction are successful, and continue.

[_Chap]

Why would an atheist have any values at all beyond the self?

Values are of course expressed in the way we act. The claim here seems to be that atheists have no basis for acting in (for instance) an altruistic way, since they do not believe in a morality mandated by a deity.

However, there is good scientific evidence that social beings who almost certainly have no concept of (and hence no belief in) a deity, or even of an abstract concept like 'morality' act altruistically:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085134.htm

Clearly it is very improbable that the chimpanzees in this study believed in a deity. Nor had any human being trained them to act in this way. Their behavior must therefore be the result of the evolutionary process that has shaped their species up to the present.

Human beings share much of their evolutionary experience with the other anthropoid apes, and it therefore seems reasonable to conclude that human altruism is itself the result of an evolutionary process.

[_Moniker]

For heaven's sake, bc, your questions are answered in the link I provided. Of course you didn't read it, so I conclude your questions are not sincere. Surprise, surprise.

The answer, in short: human beings who manifested certain behaviors (that we now view as "moral") were more likely to survive and reproduce than human beings who did not. Hence, the tendency to manifest certain behaviors became codified, whether through genetics or social training.

Prove that you really do understand evolution, cuz this is evolution. Behaviors that result in increased survival and reproduction are successful, and continue.

I noticed he was asking me questions you'd already answered and had supplied a link for. He doesn't want to understand. Yet, I followed your lead and answered for the lurkers... :)

[_beastie]

I noticed he was asking me questions you'd already answered and had supplied a link for. He doesn't want to understand. Yet, I followed your lead and answered for the lurkers... :)

Yep!! :)

[_Mad Viking]

I thought you were well read on evolution, yet, apparently you're not.

I am.

Altruism is necessary for survival.

Sure. But you are speaking to someone who believes evolution is part of the (God) creative process. However, perhaps it's a mistake to address altruism here as it may not apply to the question.

And them from.....?

From society that learned the best way to navigate safely in this world.

And society gets it from? And what keeps everyone on track?

Mirror neurons are in our brain. Some theorize that mirror neurons are actually responsible for our great leap forward and culture derived from them.

Look here, please: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/ramacha ... an_p1.html

Again, where does all this come from?

You need to define a hedonistic libertine lifestyle, for me. I imagine our definitions vary widely. For instance, hedonism is merely pursuit of pleasure -- my pursuit of pleasure actually entails ensuring that those about me are pleased, as well. I am altruistic because it makes me feel good, and I also recognize the benefits of helping humanity. I don't believe in an afterlife and believe I must do all I can while I live to help others that go without. I have been very blessed in my life and want to share my blessings with others. Altruism is hedonism, for me.

One can certainly be concerned for others and still be a libertine or a hedonist.

Why would an atheist have any values at all beyond the self? Why would such make an atheist feel good?

I , a believer in God, have values beyond the self and they make me feel good too. However, I have an explaination for this and an athiest does not as far as I can tell.

Believers can behave in a certain way (at least proclaim to do so) because their god tells them to. They believe that they feel good becuase they are pleasing god.

A non-believer (I didn't say atheist because we are all atheists) can behave in the same manner as the believer and does so simply for the benefit it does to the improvement of life around them.

This general discussion of "morals" drives me crazy. It has been my experience that believers like to deal in generalities because if they start naming of specific morals it will quickly become apparent that believers and non-believers share many of the same morals even if for different reasons. What morals specifically are you referring to? Just name a few.

I will go out on a limb an assume, for example, that honesty is one of the morals you are referring to. Why in your opinion (a believer) should people be honest?

[_Moniker]

Mad Viking, I'm glad you brought up honesty. I think there is good evidence that the LDS Church teaches the members to be less than forthright when dealing with those outside their faith.

[_Mad Viking]

Mad Viking, I'm glad you brought up honesty. I think there is good evidence that the LDS Church teaches the members to be less than forthright when dealing with those outside their faith.

I never got such instruction as a general member. My instructions in the MTC were quite different however.

[_Moniker]

Mad Viking, I'm glad you brought up honesty. I think there is good evidence that the LDS Church teaches the members to be less than forthright when dealing with those outside their faith.

I never got such instruction as a general member. My instructions in the MTC were quite different however.

I was referring to missionaries. Yet, of course general membership are told to keep things sacred and not to discuss it with outsiders, so they are put into a predicament of not being able to be open with those that may approach them with questions.

[_Sam Harris]

Some "believers" are simply honest and "do good things" because it will benefit society. And in so doing, they're not seeking to place themselves above others, or appear to be more "moral". They are simply loving, caring individuals.

It's kind of annoying that often "believers" means Christians of the right-wing sort. I believe that across the spectrum of faith, there are people who believe in a higher power, but do good because they want to, not because they are commanded to.

Believers are not puppets...well, not all of us.