Meet the Mopologists

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _beastie »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
LOL. Only if the "dentist" is incompetent, lacks proper training, and/or isn't suitably equipped.


EA
Yeah, it probably would take several years of post-grad education to learn how to get you to answer straightforward questions like Beastie was asking with clarity.


Perhaps a doctorate in psychology would work. ;)

by the way, DCP, I take it you've never had wisdom teeth removed. That is the scenario that comes to mind in trying to get clear answers from you.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

TAK wrote:I figure Biglers book will arrive 7-10 days before M@MM ..
FARMS trashed the book so I took that as a positive indicator.

For those who might be interested in "FARMS's" "trashing" of David Bigler's book, here's a link:

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=1&id=335

I might add, in order to save Scartch some time, that FARMSboy Professor Eliason's review is nothing but a vicious ad hominem smear, an attempt to destroy David Bigler's professional career and ruin his life.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:by the way, DCP, I take it you've never had wisdom teeth removed. That is the scenario that comes to mind in trying to get clear answers from you.

I had never before believed that wisdom teeth had any actual connection with wisdom.

You say you've had yours removed?
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _beastie »

I had never before believed that wisdom teeth had any actual connection with wisdom.

You say you've had yours removed?


LOL! Now that was actually funny.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote: here's a link:

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=1&id=335


I can't find any reference where Bigler implicates Young directly in the massacre.

Eliason:

Nevertheless, Forgotten Kingdom strongly hints, without providing any new evidence, that Brigham Young was not only involved but was a direct instigator. Bigler points to a meeting of Piede Indian chiefs with Brigham Young a week before the attack; Piedes were later known to be among those involved in the massacre. Bigler also refers to Brigham Young's instruction not to harm the Fancher party as an "alleged" order. This loaded term "alleged" is not applied by Bigler in any discernibly evenhanded way and appears rarely throughout the book and never in conjunction with any questionable action of any gentile. The word's use here seems designed to prejudice the reader against Brigham Young and to suggest that the memory of this instruction was fabricated after the fact to protect the church president (p. 170).(My emphasis)


In this meeting with the Piede chiefs (actually it was Hamblin, not Young, who met with them) BY asked for their help in the "war" against the United States government, or they "will kill us both". Eliason uses the words "strongly hints" and "seems", but I see no direct inference that Young was directly involved.

Even Jerald Tanner observed, quoting Bigler in an article:

Whether or not Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre may never be known. However, he seemed to have no problem with the bloody deed after the fact.


Quoting Brooks:

Juanita Brooks observed:

While Brigham Young and George A. Smith, the church authorities chiefly responsible, did not specifically order the massacre, they did preach sermons and set up social conditions which made it possible.... Brigham Young was accessory after the fact, in that he knew what had happened, and how and why it happened. Evidence of this is abundant and unmistakable, and from the most impeccable Mormon sources.

Knowing then, why did not President Young take action against these men?... He did have the men chiefly responsible released from their offices in the church following a private church investigation, but since he understood well that their acts had grown out of loyalty to him and his cause, he would not betray them into the hands of their common "enemy."...Someone assuredly warned all the participants, so that for many years they were all able to evade arrest.

The church leaders decided to sacrifice Lee only when they could see that it would be impossible to acquit him without assuming a part of the responsibility themselves.... this token sacrifice had to be made. Hence the farce which was the second trial of [John D.] Lee. The leaders evidently felt that by placing all the responsibility squarely upon him, already doomed, they could lift the stigma from the church as a whole. (The Mountain Meadows Massacre, p. 219-220)


Eliason's conclusion:

Despite these problems, Forgotten Kingdom does make some important contributions. As Bigler rightly suggests, a chronicle of the establishment and dismantling of Latter-day Saint theocracy in the American West is long overdue. Many Mormons' historical consciousness stops in 1847 as if the arrival of the pioneers in Utah were the end of history. Bigler invites us not to ignore the fascinating 1847—96 era. For this we should thank him. However, there are some signs of this era's reemergence as an important time period in LDS historical consciousness. At the September 1999 fundraiser for the Association for Mormon Letters, keynote speaker Richard Bushman suggested that because of our experience with federal intervention and domination, Mormons now exist in a state of mind that shows many features of a postcolonial condition.31 Drawing on the work of Palestinian scholar Edward Said, Bushman described ways in which colonized peoples begin to accept the image of themselves constructed by their colonizers.32 Said and Bushman invite us to be cognizant of this colonization of our minds.

The fact that many Mormons today fail to celebrate our ancestors' courageous, principled, and amazingly well-disciplined nonlethal defense of local autonomy, noncontentious governmental operation, communitarian living, cooperative economics, personal religious freedom, and family privacy—and instead shamefacedly avoid engaging with our theocratic past—may indicate that we have internalized the ideology of our colonizers. David Bigler's stirring the coals of this secret-shame-that shouldn't-be is a wake-up call to those who engage in Mormon studies to rise to the challenge of appreciating the historical meaning and current implications of our theocratic past.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

What a smear piece!
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:What a smear piece!


A smear piece by....?
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _harmony »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:What a smear piece!


We ask for clarity in our posts, Life. Yours has none.

To what are you referring?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

harmony wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:What a smear piece!


We ask for clarity in our posts, Life. Yours has none.

To what are you referring?


FARMS Review, of course.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Re: Meet the Mopologists

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Brackite wrote:The Brackite Pretty much wishes that Mister Scratch and DCP, could get along a bit better with each other.

If Master Scartch abandons his campaign of slander, spin, and defamation, I'll pay no further attention to him -- which, I realize, would be far the wisest course even if, as is virtually certain, he keeps it going for years to come.


I could not care less whether or not you pay any attention to me. I exist to put an end to your "campaign of slander, spin, and defamation" which goes by the name of FARMS Review. You can interact with me or not---it is completely beside the point. The truth is that I deal in irony. I have a sense of humor. I prefer to use a rapier rather than a meat axe. I'm sorry you're unable to see that. Whoosh!
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