"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Lamanite]

Whoa back on that. I never said I didn't want to talk to any of them. I said in order for it to be demonstrated to me that there already is a mechanism for the Brethren to accurately access the minds and feelings of the rank and file, the impetus must come from them. Me approaching them does not accomplish the same thing as them approaching me.

Again, you've identified a problem, now come up with a solution, and then come to present it in SLC.

Airfare=Paid
Hotel and car rental=Paid
Lu'au with accoutrement's=Paid (I'd personally fly out for this one alone)
Meeting with Apostle= Done

Just need to arrange schedules so you don't have to "Drop" everything.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_Rollo Tomasi]

You're not going to get ex'd. Sterling McMurrin did a million more heretical things than you and he never got ex'd, and President McKay loved him.

McMurrin survived ex'ing only because Pres. McKay personally stopped it. Otherwise, Sterling would have been gone.

Moreover, President Monson is not JFS.

I hope you're right, but he's been in the hierarchy so long I wonder if he's really any different when it comes to perceived "dissent" (or even honest debate of controversial issues).

[_Rollo Tomasi]

It's all too easy to deride the Brethren for not listening to complaints that she won't articulate to them, and for refusing to meet with her when she actually refuses to meet with them.

You're full of crap. You know full well that if harmony showed up at the lobby of the CAB she would not be able to see a member of the FP or even an apostle -- she'd be shuttled off to some Seventy who just happens to be in the office, who will listen politely, give some advice, thank her for coming, and send her on her way. If what she says bothers the Seventy, it will be noted and her bishop/SP informed (probably with instructions to talk to her and reiterate the chain of command, i.e., that rank & file members should take up such issues with their local leader, not the GA's). Any suggestion that the Brethren have an 'open door policy' with the rank & file is complete BS. They don't even want us to send them letters, let alone personal visits!

[_Rollo Tomasi]

The question isn't whether Mormonism will change according to harmony's specifications. The question is whether her claim that the Brethren are hermetically sealed off from contact with ordinary members is true.

It isn't.

It certainly is. Otherwise, the Brethren would not keep telling rank & file to stop sending letters and/or to stick to the 'chain of command' (i.e., take your issues to the local leaders, not the GA's, and if you do send a letter with a question the answer will be sent to your bishop to deal with, who won't give you a copy of the letter he gets from SLC).

Glad to see you still feel proud of what you did to my family

I feel neither proud of it nor ashamed. It was no great achievement and it certainly wasn't any great crime.

Glad to see your cavalier attitude about contributing to the estrangement between father and son. What a swell guy!

[_Lamanite]

McMurrin survived ex'ing only because Pres. McKay personally stopped it. Otherwise, Sterling would have been gone.

And Harmony's got me. But let me remind you that Sterling was always humble and polite in his criticism's of the Church. I have a letter from him to my Grandpa saying in part:

"Larry, I just can't believe that Joseph was a Prophet, I just can't do it!...But Mormonism makes me a better man, so for as long as they will have me, I'd be obliged to stay" (My Grandpa was a Mathematician at the U while Sterling, Obert, and Eyring were all there.)


Can't go wrong with that approach. You don't have to believe everything to be in the Church(including policies). And Sterling had the balls to speak out publicly several times against the First Presidency and the Church for the policy on the Priesthood.

At least he did something. ACTION effectuates change. Whining on a message board does not.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_Rollo Tomasi]

And Sterling had the balls to speak out publicly several times against the First Presidency and the Church for the policy on the Priesthood.

Again, McMurrin had David McKay on his side -- that's the only thing that saved him. JFS and HBLee were out to ex him.

At least he did something. ACTION effectuates change. Whining on a message board does not.

Actually, I think these bb's do get noticed (much more so than an unauthorized letter or surprise visit to CAB), and suggestions/whines here can lead to positive change. The Internet has changed everything, and even if GA's aren't here personally I think they do get wind of what's being said 'among the masses.' Moreover, change can be made from within. I salute harmony and her efforts to get the word out on important issues to all LDS, even if it is done here anonymously. The Internet has allowed a freedom of speech one simply cannot experience within Church-sanctioned circles (like meetings, etc.).

[_Daniel Peterson]

You're full of crap.

And that's the least of my reprehensible qualities!

Glad to see your cavalier attitude about contributing to the estrangement between father and son. What a swell guy!

I think you've mispoken here. I'm not merely "cavalier" about my crime; I "get [my] jollies" out of such evil deeds.

Don't be going soft on me just when you've got me on the ropes.

[_Ray A]

At least he did something. ACTION effectuates change. Whining on a message board does not.

Lamanite, to be fair to harmony, members of the Church today have far less access, and even less influence. Even when I joined the Church in 1975 I listened to Elder Monson speak for some three hours in a small chapel in an outer suburb of Sydney, then we all got to meet him personally and shake his hand, and later have some light refreshments. Those days are gone, at least here in Oz, when an apostle would give that much time to one chapel.

McMurrin was friends with some of the highest leaders of the Church, and as noted a close friend of Mc Kay. He was the grandson of a General Authority and grew up in those circles, and was an influential American philosopher and educator.

It's not really fair to expect that harmony could have such influence, even if she had a one-off meeting with an apostle. They would not take her very seriously, and I'm quite sure they've already heard the criticisms she offers. They would take her no more seriously than LDS members on forums do. She's banned from MAD, and cannot even have a voice there.

If her criticisms irritate you, it's because this is a board largely inhabited by critics. Outside of this board I have almost zero discussions about Mormonism, except with a few Muslim friends I work with. And to any irritated by her criticisms, you always have the safe sanctuary of MAD where you don't have to put up with it.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Honestly, giving a non-member, and an ex-member at that, a church DVD as a hostess gift is simply beyond my comprehension. I cannot imagine a more inopportune gift. A gift for the host/hostess is usually something that they would like, not something the guest thinks they need.

It's not a Church DVD. The Church had nothing to do with its production. It was privately funded and produced.

It's a DVD about the Book of Mormon, and specifically about the archaeology, history, and geography of the Arabian portion of 1 Nephi, filmed on location, with scholar interviews. Ray has been interested in the Book of Mormon for many, many years, expressing that interest in message board posts on multiple boards, e-mails to me, letters to me, and otherwise. I thought he would be interested in a film about the Book of Mormon. He was in a positive mood about the Book of Mormon at that time -- even rather passionate about it. (Several here will remember that phase.)

Any gift I take as a thank you (which a hostess gift is) would likely be something from my home state that I think the hostess might not normally buy or even know exists... like dried salmon or chocolate covered dried fruit or a nice vinegar from one of our wineries... certainly not a church DVD.

The DVD was filmed in Utah, Israel, Jordan, Oman, and Yemen, but was produced and is distributed in Utah by a private non-profit operation. It was brand new at the time we brought it over. It was unavailable and (so far as I could tell) wholly or largely unknown in Australia and New Zealand. It was very little known even in Utah, though it was beginning to show up in some LDS bookstores.

Good grief. Daniel, you are so lame sometimes.

Ah, if I were only "lame"!

Instead, I'm evil, cavalier about acute suffering, hypocritical, sadistic, and . . . well, the list goes on and on.

Next time, ask someone who isn't a BYU professor/apologist what kind of hostess gifts to take. Your host/hostesses will really appreciate it.

Everybody to whom we gave the DVD in Australia and New Zealand expressed pleasure at receiving it, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that the pleasure was feigned.

Of course, you weren't there (and presumably haven't seen the film), so you would, characteristically, know better than my wife and I would.

[_Ray A]

Ray has been interested in the Book of Mormon for many, many years, expressing that interest in message board posts on multiple boards, e-mails to me, letters to me, and otherwise. I thought he would be interested in a film about the Book of Mormon. He was in a positive mood about the Book of Mormon at that time -- even rather passionate about it. (Several here will remember that phase.)

That's an accurate assessment. But I was not passionate about apologetics, not involved with FARMS, hadn't subscribed to any MI publications since the late 1990s, and had little interest in defending the Book of Mormon as history. The message of the Book of Mormon is what interested me, and how it influenced many lives, of members and non-members. In that sense it is an intriguing topic for discussion.

Admittedly, that interest has waned much over just the last 12 months, and I've even been privately reassessing my stand on the Book of Mormon (Trevor knows about this privately), but I'm not going to say anything publicly as I have further assessments to make.